Nomads

[Christantine]

I think that nomads should be in Civilization III. This would be the "minor civs" everyone talks about. Even though your civilization has passed prehistory and prepared to settle down at the beginning of the game that doesn't mean the entire world was ready to do that. Nomadic civilizations would roam between maybe two areas where they would live off temporary irrigation fields and then move to a different square. They would have a small military force. Some would be warlike to take the place of the anonymous "barbarians" of civ 2 and some might be peaceful. They would be able to research technology but it would be spontaneous because they would have to learn from "experience" since they don't have a professional research team. This would also be influenced by what type of terrain they were camping on at the discovery. Example: At the river that might be in the nomad's present area someone might discover fishing and in the forest someone could discover the ax.

The nomads could hold formal relations with other "civilized" civs and be hired by the civ to do work around the cities and also serve in the military. If the nomadic group works with the civ regularly than the nomads might chose to form a city that is ruled by the parent civ but administered by the ex-nomadic leaders until they blend in completely.

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I came, I saw, I conquered...my allies!!

[Par4]

Good good I like, a much better improvement over the old barbarians. The gaulic and germanic tribes neighboring rome some were peaceful then engulfed by others later, also tribes changed and communicated like you said specifically the coming of the Huns, although they failed to save rome they defeated that huge 50000 hun army in france. Nomads should be somewhat scared at first of 'civilized' civs thus having them hard to make relations with at first and there should be wars between nomads, and at first many then less and less until non. You could trade them techs and food among other things for use of military units and they could give you a large amount of warriors or something. Nomads should also be able to learn things from sacked cities but only things like bridges if the city was near a river. how many nomads take the time to think about how to construct a bridge? Maybe missionary units after polytheism could turn tribes into regional little cities if we have the little cities.

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[UltraSonix]

Seems like a pretty good idea, but maybe the nomads would only join a game midway ---> having fellow nomads at the start of game would mean they're just as powerful as you and hence just another civ.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[Ken Bregott]

Why stop at this? I want to play as nomads, For god's sake! Run my barbarian horde over your pitful civilised cities! Burn, Raze and Pillage!

[rremus]

How about religious conversions? Converting a nomadic tribe would bring them into your civ! A Missionary unit, similar to the Cleric unit of CTP, but more powerful. It would target these nomadic tribes, not cities of other civ's.
If you remeber, Colonisation had similar ideeas, with missionaries, preachers and churches.
Regards,
Remus

[UltraSonix]

I don't know about being actually able to play as the nomads (thoug I like the idea of having the computer control them), because that's not really civ anymore - having a social engineering structure, economy, etc.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[OrangeSfwr]

quote: Originally posted by rremus on 06-05-2000 02:42 AM How about religious conversions? Converting a nomadic tribe would bring them into your civ! A Missionary unit, similar to the Cleric unit of CTP, but more powerful. It would target these nomadic tribes, not cities of other civ's.

I brought up the idea of "conversions" and a missionary unit in another thread and I got very little support for it. I never played CTP so I didn't know that they had a unit, but it seemed that most people were against it. I'm all for it though, as long as religion is in Civ 3. I'd like to debate the missionary unit more because I believe religion and missionaries played a great role in history, especially westernization in the far and middle east.


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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~
"Oh, they have the Internet on computers now!"

[Par4]

We need missionaries let's not forget how Christianity turned all those islands in the south pacific from their life of sin into a life with god. Ok Rome had missionaries um every religion on earth, well maybe not buddhism, has missionaries we need missionaries. Spread the word of Allah, Praise Allah, Praise Allah, join Iraq, join Iraq, Praise Allah, Praise Allah.

Religion menu, maybe make it like a book or something to give Civ3 some little touches, you could dispatch missionaries, there is an endless supply of missionaries for your national religion. Note you cannot dispatch missionaries if you have not chosen a national religion. They could be dispatched by the religions themselves though, if there was a need like heretics on the border in the mountains and under the water. You can kill missionaries from other countries, but you don't want to kill missionaries from the big religion in your country or if your people like tolerance towards new ideas and religions. Missionaries are the cheapest{free} way to convert nomads and barbarians to your civilization. The only way cities should be converted is if there is a national religion and no tolerance towards others. So if the religion endorces is Par4ism but Christantinianity is allowed then the people might move to your civ but because everything is allowed the entire city isn't going to move just because you are Par4ism. Then again Orangism might come and convert all our butts Don't forget to visit HappyLand

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[rremus]

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 06-06-2000 10:56 AM I never played CTP so I didn't know that they had a unit

In CTP, the Cleric is a 'special' unit that allow you to convert a city. A converted city is not joining your civ, but it starts paying to your tresury a lot of gold, each turn. You need a certain type of government (Theocracy) in order to produce Clerics.
I love in CTP the fact that you can fight, through the special units, religious/economic 'wars', without ever declaring formal war.
Ok, back to the topic.
I think the nomadic tribes must be integrated with the concept of migration. They would appear out of nowhere, like the existing barbarian units, and invade river valleys and other good terrain spots.
Also, leaders would randomly appear and join these tribes in mighty armyes. Think at Jenghiz Khan.
What do you think?
Regards,
Remus

[abuzayd]

nomads = awesome idea.

of course, the word "civilization" etymologically implies "city building," but a truly universal model of human history would reflect the fact that cities are just one way that people have chosen to live together.

other ways might include "true nomadism" (hunter gatherers), "transhumance" (following migration patterns of flocks or herds), "piracy" or "barbarianism" (living parasitically off of settlements), "horticultural settlement" (i.e. slash-and-burn agriculture, moving every couple of years to a new local when the soil is exhausted).

i guess the assumption in Civ and Civ II is that these stages of development are prior to "civilization" (city building). But the historical records suggests this is not so; at least in the ancient Near East and Mediterranean (i don't know enough about anywhere else) settled people and nomadic (particularly pastoralist) people had a sort of symbiotic relationship. the sometimes "mysterious disappearance" of settlements from the archaeological record can often be explained by the hypothesis that the people living there, for whatever reason, reverted to a more nomadic way of life.

even in the modern period, there are numerous refugee situations that resemble nomadism in some ways.

would it be possible for this to be reflected in civ?? any idears?

[The diplomat]

Here is my idea on how this could fit together:

the player would start as the leader of a 'tribe' instead of a 'civilization'. Your 'tribe' would be represented by a nomad unit similar to a settler unit (the nomad unit would have slightly better attack/def than a settler, and could use ressources from tile it is currently on in a limited way). When the player found a good spot and wanted to settle down, the nomad unit could build a city just like a settler unit does.
A 'tribe' does not have the settler unit so they couldn't build more than one city.(the one city could grow as big as possible though, do research etc, there would be no immediate restrictions there). As a 'tribe', the only way to expand is to get other 'tribes' (through war or diplomacy) to join you under your rule. Then you would have a several 'tribes' unified under the player's rule.

Here is where 'civilizations' come in:

When a 'tribe' (or union of tribes) discover "currency", "writing", " code of laws" and "masonry", then they would become a 'civilization'. (this would encourage players to try to unify tribes together since a group of tribes would reach civilization status quicker than a tribe trying to do it on its own)

The advantage of being a 'civilization' would be the right to build more cities. In other words, 'civilizations' would get the settler unit and thus be allowed to build additional cities.


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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

[Spekter@Home]

I like the tribe concept.

The tribe unit should grow slowly, and when it reaches a certain poplulation, it splits into two tribes. These two tribes have a chance of being friends or foes. If friends, you now have control of two tribes. If not, you have an instant enemy. The younger prince took half the tribe with him, but wants to rule the whole at any price...

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"We are all greater artists than we realize."
-Nietzsche

[Akron]

Cool! I'd like to see nomads.

Maybe in the beginning of the game, there will be different types of advances along with the scientific advances. Farming techniques, mining techniques, tools, hunting, survival in different environments, building, things like these you could learn simply by living in a certain area. All civs would start out as nomadic tribes, including you, and you'd have the choice of staying nomadic or settling down after you have mastered these. Remember, when people discovered how to build things, they did not hire researchers. They learned from experience.

Nomads would not exactly have "cities." Instead, they would have villages of little huts that they could move around if they wanted to.

Well, thats just my $0.02. Probably isn't that good, but I'm posting it anyway.

I just hope that Firaxis includes this along with many of the other things that we've been asking for.

[The Joker]

Yeah, this would be an absolutely great addition to civ.

I also read in some other thread and idea about making it possible to take your entire civ and move it, turning all the cities into settlers and armies. This could make you extremely powerful in ancient times compared to the other civs as you had put your entire civ into making a huge army. This should therefor make it possible for smaller civs to turn themselves into nomads and attack very large ones, and have a good chance of winning. Of cause if you lost the war you would be completely annihilated, and even if you conquored a foreign civ it should, if it's population was remarkably larger than yours have a very, very high chance of revolting at some point, and so taking back all or most of the cities you had conquored from them.

There should both be civs that started out as nomads and ones that chose to leave their homeland and turn themselves into such.

Even though several barbarian tribes managed to conquor Rome none of them ever kept it for more than a few years.

[rremus]

quote: Originally posted by rremus on 06-07-2000 02:23 AM They would appear out of nowhere, like the existing barbarian units, and invade river valleys and other good terrain spots.

If we combine this with the posting in the "Space Age" thread, in the 'space' age the role of these nomads could be taken by aliens?