More on Civs... More Specifity

[UltraSonix]

quote: Arab (or Zulu!)Crusaders

So that's why the game should have different directories/rules files for each civ. So as well having civ-specific wonders (in another thread), the game can also have civ-specific units. The civ-specific units would probably not be different in specs to other units from other civs, but'll just have different names and graphix.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[Sir Shiva]

Exactly, Ultrasonix..

One more thing on recreating vs. reliving history.. I'm no history student but thanks to civ I'm interested in ancient/medieval history.. And at least to some extent, I'd like to see a resemblance between history and the course of events in the game.. Perhaps civs could have a natural tendency toward a partivular religion or something..

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[UltraSonix]

Here we go again... I don't think that any names of religion should be mentioned in the game at all. It just doesn't seem neccessary to me. The game should be mainly civ vs civ not religion vs religion. If you want to do religion vs religion this should be done through gov types, eg fundamentalism.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[Sir Shiva]

Is the only purpose for religion in Civ3 for Crusades and Jihads? Religion should be more demographic, statistic, etc. influencing policy, public attitudes and foreign relations..

And historical accuracy isn't just confined to religion.. I would like to see historically accurate units and stuff too..

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[Az]

OK ppl .. I c you get into a Religion discussion... how about my idea : let's first admit that every civ had it's own religion once . and every civ had it's own ethnic side once . right ? so I say ... in the begining of the game , you , as the deity, or more accurately , the spirit of the civilasation begin you play with a religion of your own , a tribe/civ of your own and a culture of your own . right ?
in the Religion menu you will be able to control your religious settings . I mean things like .... hmmp .... well let's say : does your religion try to persuade ppl to .... " join into the chosen " ....
or is it's purpose to close down , even become a cult-like closed society . ( ?! ) .

or will it go , with the soldiers of the towns it has "infested" and spread itself world-wide ? i think that this would also be a solution to the constant problem of Civs vanishing . even if your whole military is crushed and your city is conquered , your religion , and your cultures live on. during periods of crisis , a religion which is not closed-in-itself enough will split into a few religions . but in that religion menu you wont be able to change things drastically , coz as one said here before the religious proccesses take a whole lot of time .

P.S. communism and extreme ecologism are religions too , right ? oh boy , I haven't asked the question of " what is religion " , have I ?

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[OrangeSfwr]

In Communism there is no religion. But I very much like your idea Shiva. The best part is, the religions will be named after the civ instead of "christianity" "Judaism" etc. The only problem is, for example the German religion. What is it? Will it be cult like or expansionalist? Will you base it on "fact" or will it just be randomly given out. If so, each game or just by Firaxis for each tribe? Good ideas though!

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~
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[jeibel]

Are you sure Fireaxis don't want to risk that much? Sid included ideologies, which are as touchy as religions, in the first Civ... And wasn't kind in his picture... The game was made while USSR was crumbling, but he depicted TOTALITARIAN communism... He left out fascism, but perhaps because it was just a "modern" despotism... Remeber, in Civ you had Demo for peace and Desp for war. There are simple solutions to the religion naming problem: you just have a new adjective in your civ's attribute, which is you're religion name... For the default tribes it should either be historically based, or neutral (that is, you had -ism to the civ adjective: German -> Germanism; Roman -> Romanism... However in this way you mess up with historical terms). You can of course change it as you like. This way in the game mechanichs religion it is represented only in absract terms: monotheism, paganism, and so on. Simple.
Hi everyone.

[phunny pharmer]

Government is necessary for a game like Civ3. I don't think that religion is an absolute necessity...after all, Civ, Civ2, and SMAC didn't include it.

[MidKnight Lament]

You're right. Not an absolute neccessity. But we do want Civ 3 to take us to the next level, and Religion has played an important enough part of history to warrant its inclusion, I think. It has to be done right though. But it is possible to have a good religious model without going into murky territory.

- MKL

[Jordal]

I think that religion should be included. Diplomatic relations should be better with a civ that has the same religion as you.

[Ubersandwich]

I like the ideas in this thread, but i just can't see Firaxis touching this idea with a 10-foot pole - it is too potentially controversial. I do think a racial aspect could work. i.e. if you were playing the French and you Conquered the Chinese, you would have a large number of Chinese in your empire (depending on the size of the conquered nation) and that is a major concideration for an empire/nation: Canada's Quebec or even some Great Brittian's N. Ireland etc.

[Sir Shiva]

Whoa... Some good ideas on religion and stuff..

But what I was talking about was diff. graphics and rules for the diff. civs..

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[Par4]

FLAGS!!

Religion, well Communism there is no religion, but since true communism cannot be attained on a empirical(is this a word?) scale we'll use Stalinism as a guide. And think about it even if true communism was attained it's just waiting to become a stalinist police state. I mean you rely on the majority to make the decisions, well what's going to stop the majority from becoming a minority and ruling the people like slaves after all they were already used to the state making all the decisions.

Anyway Religion should only hinder relations if you have had bad relations for a long time.

Ok so say on first contact Asian Buddhianityists go on an Inquisition of the new world but are driven back, since the first contact was horrible that is seen as a religious attack or whatever and will sour relations later where if the first contact was peaceful and war erupted for non zealous matters relations wouldn't be permanetly stained.

Following good it gets a little deeper. Long periods of war between nations with mainly 1 type of religion can hurt the whole religions positions on one another bring the church to make states to have alliances. So the church if angered with another will beable to press you for alliances etc. Also after religious alliances are formed tearing them apart can be hard even if they seem to want to break apart.

Church's power

riot-Damage
protest-no damage, better support in countries with mass media
jihad-holy war
inquisition-ok no, no one will buy it if this is in.
repairs-need better name the church can help rebuild after natural disasters, will increase the number of converts from the diaster area

I cant think of any more. Holy war will give bonuses in recruits if the state decides to fight it or you can say no go. Also taxes and everything blow sky high but the church will want a total war. Scourched earth on those heretics.

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[phunny pharmer]

I must say, religion is a touchy subject to some users. Since Firaxis wants to cater to the greatest number of buyers, they probably will not deliberately add a game element that could alienate gamers. However, I think I remember reading that CtP used or was going to use slavery in their game, and there was some sort of flack about that. I think (regardless as to the general consensus of the gamers in this forum) that Firaxis will be PC and leave religion out of the game.

That said, I think that religion would be a great addition to the game. Religion played an instrumental role in the founding of empires, in the expansion goals of many civilizations, and in the collapse and deaths of countless others. Each religion has had a different impact on the civilization, making some civs passive and others militaristic.

I see no easy way for Firaxis to implement a civ3 religion system. Reducing a religious system into a few mathematical rules must be very difficult; however, Micropose and Firaxis have already reduced human civilization into those few mathematical rules and have done an excellent job.

Just my $.02

[MidKnight Lament]

I'm not going to mention the whole religion model, because it's too big and I don't know a fair bit of it anyway... but a major point is that we don't use any names of religions in our world. If there's no comparisons, then we don't have to steer clear of touchy subjects. Different religions shouldn't have different effects on civs either. All we need to know is that some people follow one religion, and some follow another, and then model the effects from there.

If someone can be bothered finding a link to the old model (not too long), then that would be great. This comes up once a month, and I don't know where to point people.

- MKL