Civ 3 Needs Much Better AI - would help with Micromanagement too...

[UltraSonix]

The micromanagement suggestion rocks! It kills two birds with the one stone - the player gets to enjoy the game more, and the AI gets better. The only area of caution would be how and where micromanagement is reduced - the game can't be made too simple.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[Urban Ranger]

Yeah, I am one of those who contributed to the "Espionage Screen" thread

I also feel that there is too much micromanagement in civ-like games. There are all sorts of things that can be done to reduce micromanagement. For example, abstracting espionage-counterespionage operations is a good example. You can do more with less hassles.

If we make it such that cities grow by themselves according to a set of rules, instead of having a settler unit building cities, it would also eliminate some complexities from micromanagement.

With regards to the acutal AI, I don't think a neural net approach is right. Expert systems is a good start, but that's what they have been doing all along at any rate (and not very expert-like, I must add ). They should add heuristics, so the system learn as it plays.

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger on 07-07-2000 05:48 AM Yeah, I am one of those who contributed to the "Espionage Screen" thread

I go all gooey inside every time someone brings it up. To think that I suggested a relatively large change to an element of Civ 3! I think I better go lie down for a bit....

- MKL

[Theben]

Nothing personal, Midknight, but I also "initially suggested" the espionage screen. I'm not looking to claim "ownership", but I'd like to point out where I'm coming from.

When I made my suggestion, I wasn't looking to improve the AI. I was trying to reduce micromanagement for the player by cutting down on the # of units on the board. Helping the AI is just icing on the cake. Others things bothered me about the dip/spy unit:

• Dip/spy unit has a full set of options upon arriving at target destination
• May only be stopped by military units or a dip/spy in city (and then only if attempting espionage!); seems to assume squares around city are unpopulated and contain no police!
• Unit allows multiple military divisions to slip past ZOCs
• Success was more or less automatic; defender has few options to stop spy
• A REAL spy wouldn't be visible on the main screen!
• Units only seeking to establish embassy are treated as a threat

Probably more but I can't think of them now.

I know some people like the unit. Sadly there isn't a workable compromise, aside from allowing a city to build a "mission" instead of a "unit". But I think that spy missions on a separate espionage screen (possibly a sub-screen on the diplomacy screen) would help both players and the AI. And a trade screen would help as reduce micromanagement as well (perhaps building caravan "missions" ). It has been suggested that with a trade screen trade routes could be overlain the main map, allowing for pirates, privateering, and naval escorts. Perhaps a similar "overlay" could be done with espionage, with enemy spy activity marked in in contested zones. Players could fight for resource access in 3rd world countries by purchasing/raising merc armies &/or rebels, shift diplomatic leanings of other nations; basically any and all things that occurred during the cold war. Both the trade & spy screens don't have to be restrictive, they could open up new worlds of warfare!
[This message has been edited by Theben (edited July 12, 2000).]

[UltraSonix]

quote: A REAL spy wouldn't be visible on the main screen!

I never thought about that - but yeah! (But I guess SMAC tried to fix that up in a patch where the origin of spy units were unknown)


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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[MidKnight Lament]

My apologies then, Theben. Well, I'll just have to be content that it's something I managed to come up with by myself (albeit not first), and something that I've campaigned for. Either way, it's a good idea.

Also, the fact that you could see probe teams in SMAC (even if you couldn't tell where they were from post-patch) doesn't really go far enough. Only other spy units should be able to see enemy spies without fail. Other units could have a low probabliity of flushing out spies depending on how good the enemy spy is, and how good your other counter-espionage measures are.

- MKL