Government type that influences production

[Andz83]

Well, in Civ2 we had two governemnt forms that raised the trade amount: republic and democracy

I'd like to see government types that increase the production or the food output

Communism/Fascism would be predestinated for this, weren't they?

[Stuff2]

I think that governments are much more complex than that. I think SMAC where on the right track but they didn't succeed.

[OrangeSfwr]

Andz - Maybe it doesn't matter b/c I'm ONLY a Warlord but the thread Units and Democracy is currently debating on this. I thought up a system for an increase in production under Communism. Me Dalgetti and Par have been going over it. We'd love some new ideas as well.

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[Andz83]

Well, WARLORD I couldn't know about your disgressing...I'll go and check

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Andz83 on 05-13-2000 05:04 PM Well, in Civ2 we had two governemnt forms that raised the trade amount: republic and democracy I'd like to see government types that increase the production or the food output Communism/Fascism would be predestinated for this, weren't they?

Well, two parts to the question...

1) The governments need to have tradeoffs that balance against each other and avail strategies that can be successful in each without being unbeatable.

2) Communism is possibly the WORST government for production, food, or research. The USSR, North Korea, China, Cuba, etc. are all excellent examples. All are net food importers, all have standards of living under what we would consider reasonable (see if your local North Korean retailer has ToT on the shelf. Or even has a shelf), all have technology that laughably lags behind western standards.

Fascism is kind of tricky, as it isn't neccesarily a form of government as opposed to a trait. People like to equate Nazism to Fascism, which is not really correct, although some traits are common between them. Nazism had more in common with Stalinist Communism than any other major government in Europe (stooge in Italy notwithstanding).

If one wanted a fascist government, I would offer benefits of reduced unhappiness, free support for two units, maybe a special unit (security troops) that can reduce unhappiness in any city by 4 (important when capturing cities). As a disadvantage, science should take 2 extra turns REGARDLESS of light bulb production (Germany never recovered from the loss of Jewish scientists), higher rates of barbarians (resistance by undesirables), and negative diplomatic tendencies (countries tend to be hostile).

Communists...well, frankly the current Civ2 communist unit is really unrealistic for the government, but if it were realistic (1/2 science, -1 food, -1 shield), who'd choose it? Maybe reduced unhappies, security troops, immunity to diplomatic pressure...

Venger

[OrangeSfwr]

Venger - minus one shield?? minus 1/2 science??? "reduced unhappies"?!?!?!

You must be joking! Go check out "units and democracy". Dalgetti and I just went through how Communism should be changed to lose food and GAIN shield and science production. We have HUGE posts about it.

And to whoever made the post about two free units under facism, I agree. But I'd actually make it more than two. Or full support for a certain unit (similar to Fundy)

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[This message has been edited by OrangeSfwr (edited May 14, 2000).]

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 05-14-2000 05:58 PM Venger - minus one shield?? minus 1/2 science??? "reduced unhappies"?!?!?! You must be joking! Go check out "units and democracy". Dalgetti and I just went through how Communism should be changed to lose food and GAIN shield and science production. We have HUGE posts about it.

Incoming!!

I've read them. They are historically inaccurate. Soviet Communism COLLAPSED. It literally shriveled up and blew away. Soviet Communism depleted the entire Soviet gold reserve, once the world's largest. It's GONE. The Warsaw Pact dissolved, all traces of empire gone overnight. And you want to compare production now, after Soviet central planning utterly destroyed the entire country for 70 years, to it's production while it was busy exhausting it's resources? After the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the removal of Belarus, the Ukraine, and the Baltic states from the picture? The damage done is going to take a generation to fix, unfortunately.

That the country collapsed like a house of cards should show everyone the mirage that was the Russian Bear.

Science? You must be kidding. There is not a single field where Soviet science was advanced. Space? Their program was far less successful than ever thought, now that Soviet archives show the massive level of resources used and the number of setbacks they had. Mir, anyone? Military? Dear Lord, please examine the burning hulks of Iraqi and Syrian equipment destroyed by the Israeli's in the eighties and the U.S. in the 90's. The East Germans in particular had to thank God Almighty they weren't ever called upon to be the front line for what was going to be M1A2 and A-10 target practice...Medicine? Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union were breeding grounds for the new resistant strains of tuberculosis. They did however have a huge smallpox and anthrax germ warfare facility. Industry? Russian industry was never able to create consumer goods, durable goods, or foodstuffs in any quantity or quality to satisfy domestic demand, much less actually EXPORT anything. Nearly all Soviet exports were of raw minerals or military equipment (much of which currently has numerous NATO created holes).

As to reduced unhappiness, it's not so much a result of bliss and euphoria as it is of police control and Russian historical culture, where self determination and liberty had never occurred.

quote: And to whoever made the post about two free units under facism, I agree. But I'd actually make it more than two. Or full support for a certain unit (similar to Fundy)

That was me. I think two is enough personally, but I could be talked into three...the other benefits make it a balanced government if you can swallow the concept of fascism personally...

Venger

[OrangeSfwr]

Your post supports my view on Communist production. Everything in between was simply your view on the collapse and failures of Communism in Russia (which btw I completely agree on). The fact that they depleted all of their resources in 70 years SHOWS how their production dramatically increased. And none of the information was inaccurate.

You say "mir" I think "Challanger". The US and USSR both had their aviation failures. And Challanger was in 86. The Soviets had just as many nuke's (ok, if you want to be accurate - more) and more subs deployed in more places across the globe.


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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 05-14-2000 06:31 PM Your post supports my view on Communist production.

Hmmm...I didn't think so. How about this - military units are produced at a 20% discount under communism. Hey, that's sounds pretty good!

quote: Everything in between was simply your view on the collapse and failures of Communism in Russia (which btw I completely agree on). The fact that they depleted all of their resources in 70 years SHOWS how their production dramatically increased.

Problem is, EVERY nation experienced ridiculous growth since the advent of the production line and the automobile. GNP figures show the US smashed the USSR in that field. But, let's not quibble on that...the concept is to capture the essence of the Soviet/Communist government to give it the right balance of effects that you feel like you're playing (against) them, but in a way that neither unfairly helps or hurts you in comparison to other governments...

quote: And none of the information was inaccurate.

My quibbles:
1917 Russia was Europe's sleeping Giant and nothing more
Communism under Stalin turned them into a major industrial power house

quote: You say "mir" I think "Challanger". The US and USSR both had their aviation failures. And Challanger was in 86.

I really don't want to compare space disasters, as A) they had many more, and B) that wasn't my point. Mir wasn't a disaster, just a piece of junk.

quote: The Soviets had just as many nuke's (ok, if you want to be accurate - more) and more subs deployed in more places across the globe.

This is kinda pointless, because nuke counting get's absurd after about 100 deliverables ...

BUT...most Soviet MIRV's couldn't hit water if they fell out of a freaking boat. Every Soviet Typhoon or Yankee that sortied had a LA class on her ass - first thing that was to be done under declaration of war was to sink every Soviet submarine made. Bombers...forget it.

BUT...you can't them all, which is kinda the point! So from that perspective...

Venger

[The Joker]

I think that the Civ2 gov types should be replaced by SMACs SE. The latter is superior in every way. It should be heavily improved though.

If anyone is interested they should read the SE models from The List v2.0. They are all highly complex, but very realistic and playable.

On the Communism business I would think that communism would get a production bonus (both for units and other stuff). During WW2 the Soviets pumped out tanks at a tremendeous rate, far faster than any other civ. And that was even though a large part of their productive capabilities had been destroyed by the nazis. On the other side they should get a trade penalty, which in the real world is shown by the system's incapability to produce consumers goods, and to meet the demands of the people.

I think that it is pointless to discuss the soviets military strength compared to the USA. They were not at all as weak as Venger described. The Soviet MIG 29 was by far the best fighter of it's time. It was much better than both the F14, 15 and 16. The russians had more (and better, I think) tanks than the US, and more subs.

But no matter what both sides (and all others) would be completely destroyed if a war between them ever came.

BTW Mir wasn't at all a piece of junk. Sure, it became so after having been up there for 14 years or so, but in the first years of it's life it was highly succesful.

[Az]

Venger :
I protest . first of all as The Joker said both sides would be completely destroyed in a case of a war .

but , here they come . the inaccuracies .

you said that the Israelis blew up Soviet equipment in th 80's . the reason for that humiliating defeat lies not just in the tanks , but abount the tanks Syrian T-72's(old . old . old ) didn't stand a chance IsraEl's hot-from-the-oven in that time Merkava MBT ( proud production of the local military Industries complex))

second : ( also , very proudly ) Israel's soldiers are far better trained than Syrians.

now about this :

quote: The East Germans in particular had to thank God Almighty they weren't ever called upon to be the front line for what was going to be M1A2 and A-10 target practice.

oh really ? with a force ratio of 1:10 MBT's
(if not higher)
the soviets couldn't lose ! anyway that Abrams MBT is a nice piece of craft but dont forget : Soviets have T-90's . and keep in mind that 1:10 ratio.

and A-10's ? well I'll give you a name of a SAM model called S-300. this baby eats chumps like Warthog for breakfast . it also can take an F-117 as a treat .... :P

and yes the MiG is a better aircraft than the F-16 . it's only minus is a pretty weak Missle system , if I am not mistakin'.

and about failures in space . don't forget that "MIR" was designed for 3 years of service only. Its failures are results of poor supply , by the New regime . ( I would describe it in Civ Language as between-goverment-anarchy ) .

dont forget that the Western Democracy is feeding itself from .... 1 billion ppl living for less than a dollar a day ( as RATM video said ) . yep . that's what you call western standards ,huh ? oh maybe it's foregn corporations taking over . cheap jobs . almost a slave labor .

damn , Venger . you just don't know . if some1 lives in luxury , another person lives in poverty . yes . It's sad but it's true .

P.S. to kill some more myths in your heart, Venger :
- It doesn't always snow in Russia .
(as shown in any american movie)
- Russians don't Hit Hi-Tech equipment in order to fix it . ( as shown in Armageddon )
-Russians aren't always drunk.
-Not all Russians are Attached to the KGB .

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Enslave the enemy .
[This message has been edited by Dalgetti (edited May 15, 2000).]

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti on 05-15-2000 03:05 PM Venger : I protest . first of all as The Joker said both sides would be completely destroyed in a case of a war .

Nuclear yes, convetional no. The Germans would take the brunt of it though...

quote: but , here they come . the inaccuracies . you said that the Israelis blew up Soviet equipment in th 80's . the reason for that humiliating defeat lies not just in the tanks , but abount the tanks Syrian T-72's(old . old . old ) didn't stand a chance IsraEl's hot-from-the-oven in that time Merkava MBT ( proud production of the local military Industries complex))

So slap an M1A1 on. The Merkava isn't all that grand unless in Mk3 form. The Israeli's actually used a whole slew of M60A3's if I'm not mistaken...The T-90 is a T-72 with prettier paint. And examine that 79-0 Syrian vs. Israeli air force count.

quote: second : ( also , very proudly ) Israel's soldiers are far better trained than Syrians.

Can't argue with that. But consider the training level of British and American front liners to Warsaw Pact forces that are exactly how dependable?

quote: now about this : oh really ? with a force ratio of 1:10 MBT's (if not higher) the soviets couldn't lose !

Of tanks likely to be lost at ridiculous rate to AT fire from enemy armor and Apache/A-10. You pity the T-72, what do you think was the most numerous tank on the German front?

quote: anyway that Abrams MBT is a nice piece of craft but dont forget : Soviets have T-90's . and keep in mind that 1:10 ratio.

I am duly unimpressed by the T-90, really a derivative of the T-72. Bad fire control, bad mobile fire, bad power to weight ratio. Now mind you, I wouldn't want to walk in front of one, but I'll ride in 70 tons of M1A2 before I wedge my ass in a T-90.

quote: and A-10's ? well I'll give you a name of a SAM model called S-300. this baby eats chumps like Warthog for breakfast . it also can take an F-117 as a treat .... :P

There are a number of S-300 designates, most designed for higher altitude interception.

In addition - forward deployment of AA units is problematic in an armored thrust as close support aircraft from NATO will be primarily operating over their own territory and the very front line, assuming a WP advance. To put AA in such advance locations make them highly vulnerable to ground attack. Also, keep in mind the near ridiculous amount of CM available especially in a compressed front, I'd be suprised if half the guided weapons from either side worked...

Note that nearly all NATO craft lost in Bosnia and Iraq were due to ye old flak.

quote: and yes the MiG is a better aircraft than the F-16 . it's only minus is a pretty weak Missle system , if I am not mistakin'.

79-0. Nuff said. Also - what's the point of building a fine aircraft if you can't arm it? AMRAAM is an excellent AA system.

quote: and about failures in space . don't forget that "MIR" was designed for 3 years of service only. Its failures are results of poor supply , by the New regime . ( I would describe it in Civ Language as between-goverment-anarchy ) .

Heh...MIR is an example of the penultimate of Soviet technology. Yikes!

quote: dont forget that the Western Democracy is feeding itself from .... 1 billion ppl living for less than a dollar a day ( as RATM video said ) . yep .

Are you referring to food? Western democracies are net exporters of food. Third world countries (including many former Soviet republics and of course nearly all Soviet client states) are net importers. Drop by Uncle Kim's place in North Korea and share a grain of rice with him.

quote: that's what you call western standards ,huh ? oh maybe it's foregn corporations taking over . cheap jobs . almost a slave labor .

Slave labor, I LOVE IT! Obviously multinational corporations are taking these people out of whatever high wage paying job they had before to make them work at $1 a day...of course, never mind what that money buys.

quote: damn , Venger . you just don't know . if some1 lives in luxury , another person lives in poverty . yes . It's sad but it's true .

Not quite. We can all be millionaires. But if we were, who'd work? Being a millionaire wouldn't be worth anything, because you'd need to pay $1000 for anyone to bother to make you a Big Mac. It's relative, just like that $1 a day paycheck. If $1 buys food for the family, isn't that the important part?

quote: P.S. to kill some more myths in your heart, Venger : - It doesn't always snow in Russia . (as shown in any american movie)

It doesn't always snow in Canada either - but would you describe Moscow as warm or cold climed?

quote: - Russians don't Hit Hi-Tech equipment in order to fix it . ( as shown in Armageddon )

****, Americans do! And by God, sometimes it works! Not that Russians have hi-tech equipment...

quote: -Russians aren't always drunk.

Alcoholism is rampant in Russian society. It's a shame.

quote: -Not all Russians are Attached to the KGB .

The KGB doesn't exist anymore. The FSB does though...

Venger

[OrangeSfwr]

Venger - I'm sorry but I don't agree with a single thing you've said during this entire argument. I would suggest rechecking all of your "facts" and get out of your one frame americanized view. And you're quote about Russian drunks ~ take a look at America!!! For God's sake alcohol is worse here than it is In Russia. Especially when drunk driving is punishable by death!!!!!

Unless you can get someone else on your side on this thread to back you up, I'm afraid you have a very small case.

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[Az]

Venger:
That 79-0 ratio during the 80's was because of awful training of the Syrian pilots .

hell if I am not mistakin' , in some battle the Israelis found the Egyptian Armor fleeing even before engaging battle. Israelis crushed egyptian armor at a 1:3 ratio and agree with me that the Patton is no killer and is not superb to the T-62 .


The Merkava Mk 1 was NOT a modified Patton .
Actually it's basic design hasn't changed in all designs from Mk1 to Mk3 . anyway the Mk3 is equal to the West-German Leopard ( last models ), and the British Challenger ( also the last model )

about the planes and SAMs . american SAM' lose in a sure way to the Soviet.
I just remember during the gulf war ...
Patriot SAMs " defended " us ....
I am not sure they've even hit one Warhead

....
Planes ... well . AMRAAMs are great . but I am sure that Soviets had their own missiles.
...

and haven't you checked out Soviet choppers . just don't say Hinds coz I dont mean them. chopps like .... Ka-?? I don't remember . ( ok I admit . I DONT remember ! )
or planes like the Su-25 ... ( does the same as the Warthog )

or ATGMs ... anyway ...

about ppl : When I said live in poverty I didn't mean amount of money . you know that if there is plenty of money and no goods the money value falls . Remember Post-War Germany ? Remember carts full of cash ?
well what I actually meant was ... ahh never mind coz you won't change your mind anyway .

OrangeSfwr :
give me a 5 !

Andz83 :
You still can't understand what have you started , right ?





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Enslave the enemy .

[Youngsun]

quote: . Nazism had more in common with Stalinist Communism than any other major government in Europe

Nazi German style
Private ownership:yes
Centralised economic planning:yes
Not regulated price control:yes

Soviet style
Private ownership:no
Centralised planning:yes
Not regulated price control:no

Western Europe style
Private ownership:yes
Centralised planning:no
Not regulated price contorl:yes

I see more similarities with Western style.

quote: Germany never recovered from the loss of Jewish scientists

But still managed to develop rocket and jet engine. actually Me262 would be in production line by late 1942, if Hitler did not order general halt on military research during early stage of WWII.(he thought the war would be shorter)

quote: There is not a single field where Soviet science was advanced

I heard that US jet propulsion tech is one year ahead of Russia but Russian rocket tech is one year ahead of USA too.

quote: Russian industry was never able to create consumer goods, durable goods, or foodstuffs in any quantity or quality to satisfy domestic demand,

That's right and my corporation model exactly simulate this kind of situation.

quote: Mir wasn't a disaster, just a piece of junk.

But at leat only working manned space-station
and the first too. bi-planes are pieces of junk compare to modern day air planes but their historic significance as pioneers never be underestimated.

quote: The Soviet MIG 29 was by far the best fighter of it's time

what about Su27 and Su35? they too are superb indeed.

quote: Slave labor, I LOVE IT!

You must be joking!

[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited May 16, 2000).]