How does a Civ know...

[walruskkkch]

To ask you for contact with another Civ that it hasn't met? Had that happen during negotiations for a MPP and thought it peculiar that when I asked what it would take to get a pact the Russians requested contact with the Zulu's. How did they know they existed?

[HazieDaVampire]

if the Russians found the zulus first and they asked you if you wanted an MPP, you would be able to see it in the box on the left!

[Flight]

i think he means as a game mechanic compared to real life

it makes little sense but i see it as you enticing them with stories of wonders that they cannot yet know, wonders they would love to see for themselves and don't know the location of. So they pay you for the privelage, and are wholly pissed off when they find themselves talking to abe lincoln.

[walruskkkch]

But if the Russians had found the zulus would they need me to supply them with contact? Seems a bit weird when they could contact them directly then.

[Capt Dizle]

Re: How does a Civ know...

Originally posted by walruskkkch
To ask you for contact with another Civ that it hasn't met? Had that happen during negotiations for a MPP and thought it peculiar that when I asked what it would take to get a pact the Russians requested contact with the Zulu's. How did they know they existed?

Leaks in your administration, rumors, legend, myth.

The better question is what are they asking for. If you have met a civ you can send a message/emissary on a physical route. When you trade communications does this mean that you are giving away the route? Access to an ambassador that has been posted by that civ in your capitol? Are you agreeing to act as an intermediary for them.

I just think they should take that lot out and require civs to make contact directly.

[walruskkkch]

When you get contact you also get a map update, don't you? Or just the location of their capitol?

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by walruskkkch
When you get contact you also get a map update, don't you? Or just the location of their capitol?

No, trading map is a separate matter. When you establish the embassy, you get the location of their capitol. Other than that, you won't get just the location of their capitol.

[walruskkkch]

That's what I thought.

[Grumbold]

Trading "contact" without trading maps always strikes me as a little bit odd.

[Ethelred]

Probably from the foreign advisor routines. Thats how we humans find out. All they need is to know what the foreign advisor does before they contact us or even as they contact us. They mostly make a decision each turn as to whether to contact another civ or not and the foreing advisor routines would be involved in that.

Of course there could be a cheat but there is no need for one in this instance.

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Grumbold
Trading "contact" without trading maps always strikes me as a little bit odd.

The benefit is that the more civs you know, the cheaper the cost of the techs. Just think of it as trading with alien from another planet. They aliens are out there somewhere in the galaxies; we don't yet know the location of their home planet, but we can still trade with them once we make contact.

[Stuie]

Re: Re: How does a Civ know...

Originally posted by jimmytrick
I just think they should take that lot out and require civs to make contact directly.

jt - why not mod it so that trading communications isn't available until later in the game - you know, so late that by the time you have the ability it is meaningless because you have met everyone anyway? Personally, I pushed it back to Navigation (along with Map Trading pushed back to Astronomy) just to keep the map covered up that much longer.

Just a thought.

[Hagbart]

When A ask you for contact, they have not yet met B only heard of B. A needs B's mailing adress to talk.

[Galvatron]

But it's still kind of weird as in the end we are enemies and if some civ request a contact with another I usually begin to think why and the words: "attention: scheme" came into my mind automatically. The nice AI should be a little more careful in talking with others

[metalhead]

Think of it this way - when you are going into negotiations with a rival civ, you aren't just walking up to their palace and knocking on the door. "Hey, Monty, let me in I need to talk to you!" Rather, your foreign advisor sets up a meeting with their foreign advisor. Before the heads of state even meet, the foreign advisors exchange information about what their Civ has to offer. "Hey, tell Monty we've met this amazing other Civ known as the Zulu. Contact with them will allow you untold wealth through trade!" That's how your advisor is able to give you all that info during talks. Of course, it will be quite the letdown for Monty when he discovers the crappy Zulu Civ!

This is how they know what techs you have, what luxuries you have, how much money you have, etc. It's a very workable model for a SP game because of the way the AI assesses trades. I would like to see in MP the option to hide your assets from your opponent during negotiations. The AI isn't actually looking at what you have, but assessing the situation on a purely computational basis. However, if I'm talking to an actual person, and I want their tech for my gold, I sure as hell don't want them knowing that I have tech I could trade them in return. With the AI, if you can match their pre-determined tech value with gold, they will trade it to you no matter how much other tech you have available.

Notice how when at war the AI refuses to see your envoy, not refuses to speak with you. This is because before the face-to-face negotiations with the other leader, your envoy is busy telling the AI about the wondrous Civs you know, the enticing luxuries you have, the incredibly useful resources in your borders, and the amazing tech you possess, while the AI is telling your envoy how much they suck compared to you and can't afford any more than 5 gold for your best tech