Tip to trade tech with AI

[vmxa1]

Am I the only that thinks the AI offer flat out silly deals? You ask for tech A and they want massive cash and maps. When they want a tech from you or a map or anything they offer next to nothing. I know that relative strenght has a part, but the calculation for that are lame. They do it after you just kicked their butts. They have no leverage and no money, I want a nothing tech like printing press they ask for 500 and maps. It seems to get worse with each patch. Most civs have it but I skipped over it and they are flat broke (whats new), would it not be useful to get say 150 and maps or would you rather have nothing, hummm.

[JohnM2433]

Well, Printing Press costs 576 commerce to reseach on a tiny map. It costs more on the larger ones, but it also costs less for each civ you know that has it; I don't know the exact formula. From what I've seen, I think a good rule is: if x civs have a tech, buying it for 1/(x+1) the "normal" cost is a fair deal. How much your maps are worth to other civs of course depends on whether they have already gotten them from someone else. If you traded your map to another civ in the past, they may have already traded it to everybody.

What size map are you playing on, and how many civs have the Printing Press?

[vmxa1]

Huge, 16 civs. I did not count them all as it is bit of a pain to do, but at least 5, with 6 not checked. I understand the concept that you mention, all I am saying is who is going to want it at those prices and the price is higher if you have more gold. It is not a function of what it cost be to learn as I will learn eventually and it is not critical or even important. My point is if I have something of little instrinsic value and will soon be worthless, why not get something? Especially if you are broke, does not 100 look good?

[Ethelred]

Re: Tip to trade tech with AI

Originally posted by Nym

The solution is the following: set your science and luxury rates to 0%, in order to maximise your income. Contact the AI again and ask it for trading the tech;

There is no need to exit the negotions and return. Double click on the Foreign Advisors head an you can get to the Domestic Advisor screen. Change the rates and hit the X. You will be returned to the negotiations.

[SpencerH]

Re: Re: Tip to trade tech with AI

Originally posted by Ethelred

There is no need to exit the negotions and return. Double click on the Foreign Advisors head an you can get to the Domestic Advisor screen. Change the rates and hit the X. You will be returned to the negotiations.

Thats useful, Ive never tried clicking on the advisor while in negotiations before

[JohnM2433]

vmxa1, the tech is sold at a cost to the seller -- the cost of helping out a rival. The game is a competitive one, and it's smart not to do anything that increases the odds of someone else winning. You should seek better deals from players who already seem more likely than you to win -- after all, you'll be putting them that much farther ahead of you, thus disadvantaging yourself. Conversely, it's relatively safe to give great deals to civs that are far behind. It also makes sense to gang up on your biggest competitor. That's why there's a diplomatic penalty for being big -- it illustrates smart behavior on the AI's behalf, the same thing we should expect from humans in MP.

Incedentally, the more civs there are, the less true this is. For example, if you trade each of 15 other civs something worth 200 gold for 100 gold apiece, they will each be 100 gold farther ahead, but you will be ahead by 1500. You are now 1400 gold farther ahead relative to all the other civs in the game. Advantage: you!

It's hard to say what it makes sense for the AI to do based on what it would make sense for a human to do. In an MP game, if a buch of human players had a tech, they could form a monopoly, with a portion of the sales of that tech going to each player. Otherwise, one would expect free-market competition to bring the price down to 1 gold as the players try to outbid each other on the price, since there is no cost to selling the tech (it will help your rival, but the same thing is true if someone else sells it).

[vmxa1]

JohnM2433
I completely understand the concept and have know it since I was a small child playing cut throat pinochle with adults. That is why I refused to pay that much, even to a civ that could not hurt me.

I am not asking for it to really make sense or be smart, just stop being rediculous. If I just pasted you for the umpteenth time you should not be figuring you are stronger and trying to strong arm me. Ask or accept the same price you would give, when you in an inferior position. If you do not figure you want to trade it, just say so. It does not seem to matter if your are top dog and they are lowest. They still offer to buy from you at much lower prices than they will offer to sell to you. It is annoying, not critical. These things do not stop die hards, but will turn off casual players.

[Nym]

Re: Re: Tip to trade tech with AI

Originally posted by Ethelred


There is no need to exit the negotions and return. Double click on the Foreign Advisors head an you can get to the Domestic Advisor screen. Change the rates and hit the X. You will be returned to the negotiations.

Useful tip. I didn't know.
Thanks.

[JohnM2433]

vmxa1: But, using my reasoning, the "top dog" would expect to get the worst deals, not the best. Appeasing you may not even be in other players' best interest, if it increases your likelihood of beating them. Having creamed them in the past may just make them even less favorable to you, for all I know.

However, I'm not sure that it works like this. In fact, I think the AIs may work to appease big military threats, offering them better deals. Someone wrote that "the AI respects you if you are worth respecting", or something like that. And I think that having ravaged their countries in the past probably does make them fear you.

If so, the AI may just be reluctant to do any trade which does not favor them, or at least is an even exchange. This can actually work to the human's advantage, because a lot of seemingly lousy deals can actually help you get ahead, as I described above. Especially once all the civs have contact with each other, the human will generally do most of the diplomacy in the game. Undervaluing trade and diplomacy is probably the AI's biggest failing. (For example, I may be able to get almost the whole world to ally against my enemy for a relatively low cost. It never seems to occur to my enemy to try the same thing.)

[Ethelred]

The AI does get other Civs to join in. I just wound up at war with ALL three of neighbors in the very early game. The first units to attack me were warriors. I am pretty sure that France was bribed by America to join in. Germany tried to extort me and then he became the third.

I haven't been under attack by all my neighbors in a long time. The previous times it cost me the game. I have marginalized all three of them this time around but it has taken a while. I am working on steam power as I am trying to finish of the French. The Americans and Germans are of minor consequence now but their remaining cities will be worthless to me so I am concentrating on the much closer French.

The only reason the Germans are still around is they respawned across an inland sea where I couldn't get at them. They and the others were busy attacking me so the continent didn't fill up till late in the Middle ages.

[vmxa1]

Either way it makes little sense to me. I have been top dog and got the same treatment with those I fought, I have gotten it with those I have never fought. I have gotten when I am not top dog, it is alway that way, they never give you a reasonable offer. All of the considerations you mention are fine, but they will not make those offers to another Civ under the same circumstances, I'll bet. If you offer the trades they do they are insulted, but apparently they are not concerned about offending me?
Like I said, I am not concerned about making the deal as mostly I am in a war. I love the scortched earth policy and make very few trades anyway. I only would like them to make the same offer to me they would to an AI civ with the same factors more or less. A small bump is fine. This can not be what is happening or there would be no trades for anyone.

[Nym]

Is it just me or the AI is better in tech research and tech trade since the last patch?
I am in 1285 AD and the French are about to complete their space ship. I will lost this game (not in modern era yet, due to a long war against Egypt), but I win by space race my previous game (already with 1.29) in XIV century (but with short advance). In other games (before 1.29) I usually won by space race in XIX century with large advance.

[vmxa1]

Ethelred, that is what is going down with me now and is the norm for my games. I do not make many MPP or ROP so soon all are your enemies. I sort of don't mind, but it would be nice if the AI make a lot less pacts. It got so bad a while back that I had pop up after pop up about embargoes and then declarations of war. I love the embargo as I had no trades anyway. All these wars are doing is make me lots of GL and elites.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Nym
Is it just me or the AI is better in tech research and tech trade since the last patch?
I am in 1285 AD and the French are about to complete their space ship. I will lost this game (not in modern era yet, due to a long war against Egypt), but I win by space race my previous game (already with 1.29) in XIV century (but with short advance). In other games (before 1.29) I usually won by space race in XIX century with large advance.

Did you activate accelerated production? If not you must be playing on a high level with lots of tech trading going on. I am getting the same tech rate on Monarch and Regent as I did before. Launch in the early 1800's.

[Nym]

Originally posted by Ethelred


Did you activate accelerated production? If not you must be playing on a high level with lots of tech trading going on. I am getting the same tech rate on Monarch and Regent as I did before. Launch in the early 1800's.

I play on Monarch level. How do you activate this accelerated production? I do not find it in the preferences and I do not remember having activated such a parameter.
Precision : I play on huge maps with 16 civs (but it's the way I play since long).