Communism in Civ3 -- Ideas

[tniem]

PrinceofWeasels,

I must respectively disagree with your first post when you said that once you become a Communist nation you reach a level of

quote: near-Utopian levels of corruption, production, food, peace, and population.

I understand that Russia is not the place that Marx foresaw the birth of his Communist state but it was the only place left that left a chance for it to work. Europe in the oppresive Industrial Age was the expected birth of the movement but Europe was changing soon after Marx wrote his works. Laws began to be passed and labor unions were able to secure better working hours and wages. A nation will not to Communist if it is wealthy only if it is poor and so Russia was the ideal setting for the Revolution.

The U.S.S.R. did not have utopian food, peace, etc. and so Communism in CivIII should not be built in this fashion.

You go on to say that it (a utopian society)should be included in Civ III with Communism because it is the intent of Marx in his creation of Communism. But a utopia was the hope of the founders of Democracies and of other nations. You do not hope that your ideas will be anything less than perfect.

Anyway that is my two cents.

[PrinceOfWeasels]

Tniem --
I didn't say that. I said that, in the game-model, the GOAL of Communism could be reached. I didn't say that once a country becomes it, that is reached--that would be completely contrary to history. Communism is MORE Democracy, spread to levels not in a Capitalist nation. It's about Capitalism, not Democracy. If you think my beef is with Democracy, that's certainly not the case.
Please, keep it game-model related. I honestly don't want this thread to end up like half of the 'production government' thread did.
Please do read a bit more, also. I'm not enjoying the people on here who learned everything about Communism and Soviet Russia from 'Red Alert'. ;D
Anyway, I really do appreciate your reading my board, but I respectfully ask that you re-read my posts if you're unsure about what I'm trying to get across. Thanks. 8)



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[Grier]

Here is a proposed model for governments in Civ3, credit has to go to BigDave who came up with the model on the CTP2 forum. I think that maybe depending on what point in the model you lie depends on what advantages and disadvantages your civ has. Also, all forms of government would get better over time. For things like special units, then these should be available depending on whether your government falls within a specified boundry. Ideals, such as religion and the enviromentalism, should be a seperate sliding scale for each factor.

[This message has been edited by Grier (edited May 25, 2000).]

[PrinceOfWeasels]

Ok.

[tniem]

quote: Originally posted by PrinceOfWeasels on 05-25-2000 06:24 AM I didn't say that. I said that, in the game-model, the GOAL of Communism could be reached. I didn't say that once a country becomes it, that is reached--that would be completely contrary to history.

I understand that in a game the goals could be reached. I just don't think that is very practible in real life and therefor should not be that way in Civ III.

quote: Communism is MORE Democracy, spread to levels not in a Capitalist nation.

I know that, Marx's Communism is just as democratic as Western Democracies, which are really just Republics with a 'fancier' name. In Communism according to Marx, you vote for a leader of your house which votes for your leader of your block, and keeps going up to the leader. Another type of election/representation system.

Therefor the difference is in the economies of nations. I disagree with you on this but as you have asked, I will not go into this.

quote: It's about Capitalism, not Democracy. If you think my beef is with Democracy, that's certainly not the case.

I don't know what you think and I don't really care all that much. I am not trying to go to into what system is right and which is wrong. History will judge that. I just want the best possible game that can be and I do not think that having Communism have a chance of near utopian levels is the best option or addition to the game.

quote: Please, keep it game-model related. I honestly don't want this thread to end up like half of the 'production government' thread did.

I was trying to. I was just pointing out that you had said that once Communism is achieved that a nation should have the option of reaching near-Utopian state. I disagree and pointed this out with historical backing to say that just because a philosopher thinks something does not mean it is fact nor should it be included in Civ III.

quote: Please do read a bit more, also. I'm not enjoying the people on here who learned everything about Communism and Soviet Russia from 'Red Alert'. ;D

I have never played Red Alert. I have read Karl Marx, Fredrick Engels and analysis on both. What else would you have me read?

Finally, this whole thread is probably pointless since Civ III will probably use a Social Engineering machine much like the one in SMAC. I will summarize since you have never played according to your first post.

S.E. allows you to pick and choose elements of a society once they are researched. If you want Marx's Communism you would take a voting form of power and add that with State controlled economy. Western democracy would be voting form of power combined with free market policies. They would each have pluses and minuses. At least I would hope that they do and are not simply near-utopian forms of benefits.