next generation turn-based strategy

[The diplomat]

Here is my idea:
you have an empire building game, and all the units would move simultaneously like in any RTS. But, at certain critical events, the game would AUTOMATICALLY pause. At this point, the game would be exactly like when it is your turn in civ2, SMAC or any other TBS. You would have as much time as you want to strategize, issue orders, change things, go through screens, do diplomacy and everything else one does during a turn in a TBS. When you are done, you would click the "resume" button, and the game would unpause and flow just like a RTS until the next event occurs that pauses the game.
You could customize which events would trigger a pause.
The events would be things like meeting a new civ for the first time, when another civ calls you up for diplomacy, when a city's build queue is empty, when a city is low on a particular ressource, when a city is about to riot, when your units encounter enemy units etc...

The advantage of this idea is:
1) it has a certain logic for an empire building game. It makes sense to stop at critical events to let the player make decisions. And the game would still flow nicely.
2)It would make the game twice as immersive because it would give the player the illusion of being a leader of an empire from the decision-making strategy that we love from TBS, but also from the RTS aspect of watching the villagers work and fight and seeing a city grow in detailed graphics. (imagine seeing your villagers with torches burning your buildings during a city riot, instead of just a pop window telling you, or seeing your people dance and cheer when a city enters a "we love the ..." day, or when they complete a Wonder.) It combines the best from both RTS and TBS.
3) probably better AI because the computer could "think" even when the game is paused. And since the player would take their time thinking, the computer would probably on average have more time, than an ordinary TBS, to calculate situations.
4) it would work really well with multiplayer. You don't need simultaneous turns and it avoids the problem of turns taking too long.

I know that the idea is radical since it does depart from the traditional civ way, and I know that there is little chance that it would be used for civ3, but I do think that this idea has merit and could be the future for TBS. I just want to start a discussion.

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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

[Slingshot]

Good idea, Diplomat!

I was going for the same sorts of ideas with the Civ IV suggestion thread. You're probably right in that the mould for Civ III has largely been set.

But forget Civ IV. The next generation of Civ-based entertainment (after Civ III and CTP 2) could come from Big Huge Games.

The good thing about Big Huge Games is that they know Apolyton - the world's BEST source for good ideas!

I think a big challenge with the model you proposed is with scale and view. While it would be great to see lots of details in the cities (like riots and growth), this would have to be "enlarged" to fit on a planet scale.

I also like the thought of Spinning a globe and zooming in on areas, sort of like what we saw in the last Populous game. This could offer a unique perspective for air/space units!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Would it really be TBS then?

Actually, take a look at Imperium Galactica II to see something akin to your idea.

[ChrisShaffer]

It might be an interesting game, but many of us have no desire to play in click-fests. Add real-time to Civ and I completely lose interest.

[Zanzibar]

For me, the most troublesome problem in Age of Kings is the totally lack of time-control. It's really a wonderful and very enjoyable game, but I would like to have 2 buttons: a (+) and a (-), to control the time. When I want the game to slow down, even stop, just push a few times the (-), make the right decisions, and than accelerate again. Just adding a little TBS in RTS.
Another game with a similar approach is UFO (X-COM). Real time and pausing if something happens. I liked UFO very much.
So, your idea, Diplomat, is not bad at all. But would it work for CIV? I don't know.

[The diplomat]

First, thanks for the feedback. I really apreciate it.

ChrisShaffer: with my idea, there would never be any click-fests, because the player does not do anything during the "RTS" phase of the game, only when the game pauses, and then you have as much time as you want just like any TBS. I know it sounds like you are relinquinshing control since you only do stuff when the computer stops the game for you. But since the game stops at important events (which can be fully customized) then you would not miss anything. Since these events occur frequently, you would still be in control. Just think about how often one of the events occurs in a civ game. You would not go very long before the next opportunity to issue orders.

I am going to imagine how my idea might work for a civ type game.

The game would start on a huge map (99.9% unexplored) in paused mode. I have a band of five villagers in the middle of a plain with forest to my left and berry trees to the south. I am in the stone age. I select my five villagers and tell them to build a village center and three houses. I click "resume". My villagers would begin to construct a village center and then three houses. Deer walk by. Birds fly over. 50 seconds later they finish building the center and the houses. The game pauses. I select 2 villagers and assign them to explore the map, the other three villagers, I assign to collect food. I click "resume". My villagers go to the berry bushes and start collecting food, and depositing them at the village center. My two other villagers have wondered to the North and have met a barbarian hut. The game pauses. I click the two villagers and tell them to ignore. I click "resume". My villagers walk around the hut and continue to discover new lands. Back in my village, I get a new villager. The game pauses. The new villages asks what he needs to do. I select the new villager and tell him to build a barrack. I click "resume". The villager automatically goes and chops wood down (because I don't have enough to build a barrack) and begins constructing a barrack when the wood is sufficient. Meanwhile, my explorers have stumbled on a new civ. The game pauses. The diplomacy screen pops up, because the new civ's leader wants to talk:
"Greetings from Ceasar of the Roman Tribe, you have reached our humble capital, Rome. I request that you respect our territory!"
I select the response "I never meant to infringe on your territory. Are you interested in trade?"
Ceaser says:"We might consider trade. How about 10 tons of wood for 10 tons of food?"
"Agreed. I hope we will talk again."
I select my villager and move them away from Rome. I click "resume". My villagers leave Rome and follow my way points, get food at my village center and take it back to Rome. 5 seconds later, I see a Roman villager enter my village and deposit 10 tons of wood at my village center. A window pops up: "Thank you for the food, here is 10 tons of wood as promised."
The villager constructing the barrack finishes. The game pauses. etc...

I think it could be a lot of fun, from the early beginnings when you explore new territory to the late game where you watch your fighters dodfight over your skyscrappers.


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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.
[This message has been edited by The diplomat (edited March 04, 2000).]

[NoviceCEO]

quote: Originally posted by Zanzibar on 03-04-2000 05:32 AM For me, the most troublesome problem in Age of Kings is the totally lack of time-control. It's really a wonderful and very enjoyable game, but I would like to have 2 buttons: a (+) and a (-), to control the time. When I want the game to slow down, even stop, just push a few times the (-), make the right decisions, and than accelerate again.

Have you really played AoK? If you type (-) the game slows down and if you type (+). Press F3 and you pause the game. It works fine (and looks like a cheat) for me in single player, but sucks big time in multiplayer: it's simply annoying. The problem in it is that AoK has too little time options.

The diplomat

quote: with my idea, there would never be any click-fests, because the player does not do anything during the "RTS" phase of the game, only when the game pauses, and then you have as much time as you want just like any TBS.

Frankly, if you do nothing in the real time momments, why having it all? It may be nice to look your neat villagers in fancy graphics, but it'll just get annoying to look at it after time.

If there are less pauses and you actually do something during the RT momments, then I think it would make the game... let's say... too much "paused". It would go and "pause" just in the most exciting momments.

Sorry, but my thoughts do not fit with yours.
Keep posting radical ideas mate.

[MidKnight Lament]

to what end?

just sounds to me like we'd lose a lot of control and do a lot of waiting.

[zippyg]

Nice Idea Diplomat
It would be good to see that in the game. I have not played any of the Civ games before and CTP2 or CIV3 will be my first, however I am surprised that this idea has not already been implemented in prior Civ like games. I say this because, whilst good, you idea has already been used in at least 1 game that I know of, and it is the TBS sci-fi Master of Orion 2 which came out in 1996. In this game you can do pretty much what you describe, which came in handy on occasions to speed things up. The only difference is the level of discretion that you have in deciding when the game pauses. In MOO2 the game could either pause after every turn, or you could set it to pause after something occurred where a minor event would pause the game or you could set it to where only a mojor event would pause the game. What constituted a minor or major event was set by the game.

[Sirotnikov]

The idea is very nice, diplomat, but i think this doesn't really fit civIII. The description you wrote for the game for me is kinda boring. I mean, the pretty graphics and all just waste time. It is nice, but i think it should wait for more stable and more powerful computers. I mean, if you would really put so much in the appearance it will push the gameplay a side. Age of Empires and AOK are very good examples. It is fun and all, but there's no room left for the complexity we would expect from a civ type game. It sounds more like Warcraft II, which I love but I wouldn't want civ becoming this way. Not if it would leave no room in the CPU for making smart AI. and If designing such graphics and movies, firaxis simply won't have time to think about AI and gameplay. Having a civ with the complexity and the RTS/TBS interface would take maybe two more years to develop.

The idea is nice. Maybe a new genere of it's own. I would be interested in seeing a game like this, and I would decide whether I like it. But not civ. At least not Civ III.

But still, very good idea!

[Zanzibar]

Well, next time I should try to do first the things about I'm saying they are not possible .
Anyway, thanks NoviceCEO.

Diplomat,
how do you imagine to work your idea in multiplayer? I mean, if always somebody stops the game ...

[The diplomat]

I realized after I posted my description that it was not a very good one. It made my idea look like a AoK clone which was never my intention. This is a civ3 forum, and I am interested in a civ3 not a AoE or AoK clone.

If I catch the general feeling, it is that the idea is a good idea but not appropriate for a civ3 game (or at least not without major changes in the civ model which would change civ3 away from we (and that includes me) all want: civ3!

Zanzibar: the way I envision multiplayer would be the exact same way as single player except that there would an upper time limit for your "turn" (something like 5 to 10 mn) There should be enough time so that the player is not rushed. It shouldn't be speed chess!
When the game pauses, everybody gets to issue their commands simultaneously. The game would only resume when all human players had hit the "resume" button.
The time limit would be needed because for the game to resume all human players need to have clicked "resume". Without a time limit, a player could never hit "resume" and essentially block the game for everybody else. The time limit would force the game to unpause after X amount of time so that a player couldn't do that.


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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.
[This message has been edited by The diplomat (edited March 06, 2000).]

[Xin Yu]

I think I have seen similar arrangement in other games. Here's what was implemented: In each year (turn) there are two phases (Spring and Fall). In Spring players manage the territory. No units can be moved, just do supplying, training, recruiting, foreign affair, buying, selling, etc. Then in Fall all units can be moved and battles can happen.

[Sirotnikov]

Wow, Xin Yu, that's a great thing!
I know that a board game called diplomacy has two parts in a turn - spring and fall, and you only get units from supply centers in fall, but what you're saing is nothing like it.

Wow! I mean it. I would like people to really consider this type of thing. This would really help to ease up the game! I mean, we all know how annoying it is to change all the production in your city and adjust everything that needs adjusting when you're in the middle of war and the blood boils in your veins!! I often disregarded the messages and clicked ok without ever reading the messages in order to get on with the battle!!! Only to discover that some units were disbanded because production went down because I lost population while not noticing that my citys were starving. And then I have discovered that my top production city is building a 7th explorer unit in a row when I need artillery and cavalry!

This would solve it all.
I would like to this to be considered as a major idea for civ III!!!

[tniem]

Your next generation turn based game may not work for Civ III, which it does not in my opinion, it would be perfect (maybe) for SM's Dinosaur game. I have no ideas about how that game will run and this type of TB/RT might work. As would a clock in Sim games that you can turn on and off.
[This message has been edited by tniem (edited April 09, 2000).]