The AI does NOT negotiate!

[Robert]

Negotiation with the AI is no fun.
What it wants is completely decided before negotiation starts. All you have to do is find out what the minimum is, and that's it.

The advisor only needs 3 lines:
- ok
- almost ok
- not ok

The 'I doubt' and 'insulted' lines are a waste.
It would work if now and then the 'I doubt' advises would be accepted though.

It is all too fixed.

[ChrisiusMaximus]

I would agree with you the AI is very biased in its dealings with you.There have been other threads on this subject but maybe it needs to be said again,Call to Power 2 had some good diplomatic options.

It would be nice to have more treaty options and more realistic and cooperative trading.One of the things I most looked forward to prior to the games release was the new all improved diplomacy system and Its only fair to say that it is good but Im sure it could be added to and made just that bit deeper.

Sorry Firaxis if this sounds too critical but Cybershy is right it does seem fixed and can be very frustrating at times.Would it be possible to incorporate addittional civilization traits tied to their diplmatic personalities such as Peaceful,Fairminded,Stubborn,Haughty,Deceptive or similar other attributes.
Example the Romans could be Militiaristic and Commercial in their approach to the growth and stability of there empire but Stubborn and Haughty in there trade and diplomacy.They may perhaps try rip off Fairminded and Thrifty Nations but have more respect for
Aggressive and Deceptive nations,who knows?
What does any body else think,is there something in this or have lost the plot.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I agree. I had a suggestion on how this could be worked but Apoly's server got overloaded and erased my post, I'll post it later.

[Willem]

Re: The AI does NOT negotiate!

Originally posted by CyberShy

It would work if now and then the 'I doubt' advises would be accepted though.

It is all too fixed.

I agree. It would be nice, and much more realistic, if sometimes you could get away with taking a chance when your advisor says "I doubt it." As it stands now, there may as well only be two options, they accept or they don't.

[Todd Hawks]

Hmmm.... it would be nice if the AI acted like a human, but I don't think it is easily doable.

Either the AI has a fixed exchange value "in mind" and your advisor just doesn't tell you so you don't know 'exactly' whether or not it will accept.
But then a lot of people would still try to get the optimal value and just be frustrated because it is much more difficult to find it.

Or the AI use some kind of random variable to determine the exact value and/or whether it accepts a given deal or not.
Then a lot of people would complain about not getting the same deal under the same circumstances or just negotiate again to see if they have better luck next time.

[Theseus]

I'm not sure I understand the problem...

Diplomacy deals with complex, multi-variable trades, with valuation of different 'assets' influenced by indirect issues such as reputation, size, relative power, research status, and even group (e.g. Asian).

Seems to work pretty well to me.

[Willem]

I don't see how it would be a problem really. If your adivisor says he "doubts" whether it would be acceptable, there could be a digital equivalent of a coin toss, either yes or no. I don't see how that would be very difficult to program. There's been many real life negotiations that have been resolved along the same lines.

As for negotiating again, that could be preserved the same way the random seed is, so the decision remains fixed, unless the player chooses otherwise. Frankly, I don't think that area will be important enough for people to even want to reload a save game and try again.

[Gastric ReFlux]

I haven't tried this yet myself, but I saw a discussion where somebody mentioned that if you get the "We're getting close to a deal here," you can try the "Take this deal or suffer the consequences" option. If you're sufficiently ahead in power, the AI may cave in to your demand.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Theseus
I'm not sure I understand the problem...

Diplomacy deals with complex, multi-variable trades, with valuation of different 'assets' influenced by indirect issues such as reputation, size, relative power, research status, and even group (e.g. Asian).

Seems to work pretty well to me.

The thing is that in every negotiation, there eventually creeps in that "Well... I don't know...." factor. The point where you're almost convinced, but not quite. Giving the AI a similar response would make them seem much more realistic. As it is now, it's all black & white. They either agree, or they don't. When dealing with real humans, there's always a lot of grey in between.

[Theseus]

Right, and the grey is created through making it a multi-variable negotiation.

Think stock market versus a corporate merger.

[steven8r]

Re: The AI does NOT negotiate!

Originally posted by CyberShy
The advisor only needs 3 lines:
- ok
- almost ok
- not ok

You can change this in diplomacy.txt file.

Or get even more creative.


But I think your original complaint is well founded. It does seem too fixed.

[Inverse Icarus]

my favorite gripe is when you're makign a deal that says "we're close to a deal here" so you start changing the gold by 1, and you end up with 15-20 gold more than what was "close"

i've often wanted a "give me the lowest deal" button, but i guess that takes some "fun" out of the game.

[DFHNY]

trading is weak

Trading is weak and patch by patch getting weaker.
I play at Monarch level and usually std map. The trading is always pretty lame (I play with other Civ3 gamers and we all agree on this point).

1. Trading was more fun with the earlier versions, perhaps unfair, but more fun. By this I mean: the computer civs usually had different tech to trade now they all have THE SAME tech and tons more than you do.

2. AI CIVS all want the same thing, so it is now like you are playing against 1 person whereas before (and in CIV 2) each CIV had its own personality and that made trading much more fun. Also the civs owned different tech at different time, some were war like and military tech (you get the picture).

3. Now, with the most recent patch, in order to beat the HUMAN mind, Joren who programmed a fine game has told the AI to beat the human no matter what, don't give the human stuff he wants, e.g. the most recent tech and anything to promote happiness.

4. THe AI civs don't want to pay for your luxuries any more. Why is that? Does the AI civ need to be happy too?

5. Noone will pay anything for maps anymore, again, why? And heaven forbid you should sell your map, the AI will teleport to your 1 un-occupied square within 4 turns (on Monarch) guaranteed.

Long and short, I used to like trade, it was fun and varied. Now trade is there just to keep the AI from killing me.

[Arrian]

3. Now, with the most recent patch, in order to beat the HUMAN mind, Joren who programmed a fine game has told the AI to beat the human no matter what, don't give the human stuff he wants, e.g. the most recent tech and anything to promote happiness.

4. THe AI civs don't want to pay for your luxuries any more. Why is that? Does the AI civ need to be happy too?

#3 - In some ways it depends on what level you play, but there is a pretty complex system in place that determines what the trade deals can be. We got into it in the "AI vs. AI Tech Trading" thread, including non-tech trades like luxury deals (my gripe). Understanding how it works has made me less frustrated by it. Though I still think it's a bit off. The only "beat the human" factor is the AI to AI trading factor, which varies depending on difficulty level. I think it's 1.15 on Regent (was this the 1.21 value, or current? I don't remember), which means the AI will take a deal with another AI for 85% of what it would charge you - if the AI can only afford that. Otherwise I believe it will get full price. One can adjust this in the editor if one feels so inclined.

#4 - Haven't noticed this, unless the AI civ in question is broke... and that does happen fairly often. The best AI civs can and will pay for luxuries, however.

I disagree with your points, Cybershy, for a couple of reasons:

1) You're asking for the AI to behave like a human, which isn't possible at this time. The AI is computer code, and for better or worse, it will act like it.

2) In the case of selling something to the AI, often times the reason you get the negative advisor comments is that the AI simply cannot afford your asking price. Accepting the deal will result in the AI going bankrupt and triggering the "must declare war to get out of financial obligation we cannot pay" thing. I doubt you'd like that very much.

3) I'm not a big fan of randomness in computer games.

-Arrian

[ShuShu]

I am a big fan of randomness...

... but I still don't like the suggestion...

I am not playing Civ III to pretend I am a tourist at a Mediteranean Trading Bazaar (sorry Apolyton... ). I would actually prefer it to go the other way. I would rather have the AI tell me what it values everything at so I could fashion a trade in one step rather than haggle back and forth over this tech va. that tech, this resource vs. that resource, etc, etc.

I agree with the point made earlier that I feel oblidged to stress. I don't want to be going back turn after turn in an effort the get the right random number to pop up.