Save the camel !!!!

[Matthew]

The camel isn't part of civ, THE CAMEL IS CIV !!!!! There is a reason CtP , and even SMAC don't stack up to CIV 2. tHEY HAVE NO CAMELS!!! Just some pathetic little excuse for real trade that involves no real units, and doesn't involve boats or roads. Those who gripe about Camels are likely those who aren't very nice to Camels, and don't know how to treat them right, and therefore have never gotten a 700 gold trade bonus from one.
Sure, the current model is a bit tedious. As one who often builds far more camels than any other kind of ground unit, and who builds huge navies just to move them around, I should know. But the system can be fixed. There's no call for intentional Camelid genocide here. An improved (ie, reliable) go to function would help, as well as a way to designate a destination city for the camel so you could just look at the screen to see where it is supposed to go rather than having to go to the supply and demand list every time to figure out where you are taking him would be very helpful. In fact, there are many ways to make each and every camel a better, happier camel.
Without Camels seas are little more than something to transport settlers and armies over, and a navy, afterall the land is settled, is good for little else but warfare.


So fix the camel, yes, but don't kill the camel,

SAVE THE CAMEL !!!!!!!

[The diplomat]

That was a funny post !!
Well, I am sure that you probably did not mean that way. The truth is I agree with you completely. The camel is an example of the kind of units that gave civ its charm. And there are ways to make trade easier and less tedious and keep the camel. For example, when you sign a trade agreement in diplomacy with another civ for say 10 tons of stone per turn for 60 gold per turn, the computer could automate the trade unit (ie the camel), automatically moving it to and fro its destination, taking the export to its destination and bringing the gold back. The player would just make the trade agreements and watch the camel do the rest.

So put my signature on the petition.
Let's save the camel!


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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

[Slingshot]

You know, I never thought of it that way...

Thanks for the new perspective!

(Does anyone know if trade units were present in SMAC? I am asking because I think that SMAC is going to heavily influence Civ III).

[korn469]

there are no trade units in SMAC, instead when u have a treaty with a faction you set up a trade route...a treade route is created like this:

your energy producing cities organized from greatest to least matched up with the faction you have a treaty or pact with organized by energy production from greatest to least

so the city that produces the most energy will be matched to their number one energy producing city...then the #2, and so on

each turn you get an amount of energy from these trade routes depending on your commerce rate and the amount of energy the cities produce

korn469

[korn469]

oh yeah and instead of fix the camel don't kill the camel how does this sound

fix don't nix the camel?

korn469

[Father Beast]

I just woke up my baby laughing so hard as I read Matthew's post. I haven't played AC or CtP, but korn469's description sounds less than appealing. I have had some bad luck with forgetting what a Camel was carrying and what city I meant it to goto, with the result that I made trade routes with the wrong cities. To have better Camel (and truck) control would help me a lot.
But no mistake! I also love my trucks. I got this big grin on my face the first time I heard my trade advisor say "we're Rich, Rich, Rich!!

[korn469]

the good points about the SMAC system are

1. it automatic
2. it's simple+quick, no micromanagement involved
3. you get enough money so that it is worthwhile
4. it encourages peace
5. it is benefical to both side (though one side can definantly rack up alot more trade)

the bad points are

1. no commodities
2. over simplifies trade
3. not important enough

though i think SMAC's trade system is a much better system than civ2 i do agree that it needs lots of work, if a civ2/SMAC trade hybrid could be made then that would be something to look forward to in civ3

korn469
[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited March 04, 2000).]

[MidKnight Lament]

Hey, CTP trade was good! It may not have had camels (the travesty!...I know), but it was good. All it need was good diplomatic options to go with it.

[pauli]

well, the ctp traded needed that, but also a trade advisor who didn't tell you to send imaginary trade goods to other cities, and wasn't so set on getting you to buy stuff from your mortal enemies...

the camels were fun. however, i'm thinking that they should be automated, so that the only way for the player to control them is through diplomatic methods (trade embargos, the usual). so, you would just watch the little camels and trucks wandering from city to city automatically. of course, there would need to be camoflaged camels (camelflage? ) for smugling...

for an added touch of humor and immersion, perhaps various continents (or at least latitudes) could have different trade beasts... camels, llamas, mules, um... ostriches?

maybe the camels (and such) would chart trade routes that balance speed with defensive units and fortifications - they might take a detour through a friendly civ (or along a chain of forts of your own), rather than go unprotected through a long, long desert. gotta avoid those nasty barbarians.

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it's just my opinion. can you dig it?

[MidKnight Lament]

I'll certainly agree with Pauli on being able to set the route yourself. The fastest way, isn't always the best way. Particularly if it's dangerous territory. I like trade, but I hate having to rebuild destroyed caravans!

[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 05, 2000).]

[Dienstag]

The "Camel: Fix It or Nix It?" question is a hard one for me. I think there's a lot of fixing to be done, and I'm not sure when the fixings done if there will be a camel left.


Some of my thoughts:
-I don't like the SMAC system.

-There really needs to be a trade UNIT that can be KILLED. Otherwise, naval blockades are pretty much useless.


Some problems with Camels:
-Trade routes should not be well nigh unto eternal. Even when I conquer a city my enemies keep trading with it.

-Camels should not take 1000 years to walk across the continent (or 500 years to sail around the world). This is a really good way to discourage trade.

-Complex commodity system, plus neccessity of remembering which camel is going to which city for the couple hundred years it takes to get there, equals one-heck-of-an-annoying-trade-system.

I guess I'll vote to save the camels, but they better be some kind of super-camels or something in Civ III.

[pauli]

the hard part is balancing camel speed with restricting them to their purpose: trade. see, i agree that they should move faster, but if the speed is kicked up too high, then camels become uberexplorers. here's my idea:

camels should have a vision range of 1 for detecting units, but 0 for detecting terrain. that way, you can explore with them, but it won't be very efficient. also, on unexplored terrain (as long as it is lacking roads), they can only move one square per turn. however, to balance this, on already explored terrain they should have a speed of 3 or 4. that way, you could send them cruising across a continent that you've already explored, without them being abused. it's worth noting that if they worked this way, then coupled with a fast moving military unit, you can blaze a new trail between, say, two coasts of an otherwise dark continent.

also, i see a need for two types of camels: automated, private sector camels (at least, under governments that allow a private sector) that are out of direct control, and player controlled camels, that do what you tell them too. while the latter would allow for much safer routes (through mountain passes and desert wastes, rather than through that hostile empire you just met and accidentally declared war on), they would be inherently less efficient than privately owned camels. after all, a merchant who is risking his life on every journey will work somewhat harder than the guy who has an unassailable government job (no offense to anyone who might otherwise be offended).

i'm thinking that if trade is going to affect diplomacy (and vice versa), then private sector trading would add an interesting twist.

oh yeah... the camo black market camels count as private sector, but you have no control over them short of stationing military units and spies on every trade route to detect and incarcerate them (if you choose to do so).

what do you think?

[pauli]

a couple other things:

MidKnight Lament, my idea isn't for direct control over automated trade routes, but rather the ability to "influence" them. roads, guarded routes, roadblocks (would have to be added to military units as an ability), and overall travel distance would figure into how the ai chooses to route the routes, so to speak. maybe its preferences would be derived from se choices (ie, whether or not to take risks)...

Dienstag, perhaps there should be a little window somewhere on the interface where you can attach notes to specific units? ie, you select a camel, and the text you entered earlier saying "en route from philadelphia to karakorum" pops up. might solve a common gripe


[This message has been edited by pauli (edited March 06, 2000).]

[supremus]

Hey Matthew, this one was really funny. And very interesting. I like the Camel too, and the trucks. But we must addmit that Camels and Trucks in spite of being very appealing are also some boring in Civ 2. I think we should use in Civ III a SMAC oriented model, but with the Civ 2 approach, i.e. to use units (Camels, trucks, cargo ships and planes) to make real routes. It's a difficult task to balance micro-management required by units, with macro trade approach like in SMAC, but that's what they should try. :-)

[Harel]

To continue Pauli post, maybe every beast of burden will have it's own special attribute?
Camels will have extra trade points, Llama will have a ranged attack ( spitting bonus ), Horses could be faster.
ostriches could be your "super-trader" with good defence and attack levels. For everyone knows, where the trading clans of the Ostriches come to town, none can stand in thier way.