Read the MPP Contract Before You Sign

[jshelr]

I've got a question about MPPs.

Persia was reborn on a pathetic spit of land in a current emporer game and has been forced to weather a continuous stream of attacks from larger, fortunately not very competent, neighbors for more than four millenia, meanwhile blessed with too few luxuries and possessing unhappy citizens in overabundance.

Having eliminated Greece, Rome made a MPP with my large southern neighbor China and immediately attacked my carefully fortified and forest-cleared choke point in the North.

Based on limited experience with MMP rules, I was careful only to fight on my turf. (Fighting both Rome and China would be suicide and the Alamo game is next in the cue. I can only take so much beating.) After five turns (I'm a bit slow on the uptake) it finally occurred to me that I might ask Mao for a MPP of our own. I was willing to pay up big time.

I pull up the MPP and RoP option and the message is "This probably will be acceptable." For free!!

Mao then declares on Rome even before Rome attacks again me on my turf.

Finally, the question: What the heck are the rules for an MPP?? I sort of vaguely know, but what is the actual contract I'm signing when I sign one and how often do these slimy leaders actually do what they promise?

[dunk]

MPPs to me seem somewhat poorly done.

What an MPP does is this:

1) If someone attacks a military unit for China, you must declare on that civ.

2) The reverse for China.

3) You must remain in the war until the MPP is disolved after 20 turns or you will take a reputation hit.

MPPs can be a pretty sleazy exploit. I avoid them like the plague unless I am in a situation similar to yours. Usually, if I sign one with a civ who is at peace with everyone, the next turn they declare war on someone, dragging me into it as well. I think they were meant to represent what Europe was like before WWI, with all those huge alliances that drug the entire continent into a war over an assassination.

[vondrack]

OK, a question here:

Suppose I am asked for an MPP. I sign it. Next turn, my new ally declares a war on somebody, forcing me to do the same. Do I take a reputation hit then? I mean, it is obvious that I do for the civ I am forced to declare war to, maybe for the allies of this civ, too. But what about those that are not directly, nor indirectly involved? Is being dragged into a conflict considered "bad"?

[dunk]

Well, declaring war doesn't really hurt your reputation unless you have a "per turn" deal (gold per turn, resource trade, alliance, ROP, another MPP, embargo) with the civ you just declared war on since the deal will be broken.

Which is why I avoid MPPs like the plague. And they can easily put you into a war which you are not ready for. As long as you have more power than Switzerland, you can take their role inthe world.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by vondrack
Suppose I am asked for an MPP. I sign it. Next turn, my new ally declares a war on somebody, forcing me to do the same.

When you are in a MPP, it doesn't mean that if your partner attacks, you are immediately involved in the war, your ally needs to be attacked for that. In many situations, you're ally wil not be attacked in the first turn, which gives you a bit of time to shuffle trades and further alliances.

But indeed, declaring war to come to someones rescue is not considered a bad thing, it's the loss of trades that is.

DeepO

[jshelr]

Questions:

What precisely does "your ally needs to be attacked" mean? Does it have to be on his home turf, or can it be a "defensive" attack on the turf of the civ your ally has attacked. (China let me "attack" Rome for five turns.)

How does the game decide who I'm at war with if I've MPPs with civs that begin a war? Is the target civ the civ that actually declares war? Or is territory where the conflict takes place the key factor?

Are you automatically at war with all civs that are already at war with any civ you sign an MPP with? How does cascading work when "everybody has MPPs with everybody?"

[Alex]

Very good questions here. I am a bit confused myself.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by jshelr
What precisely does "your ally needs to be attacked" mean? Does it have to be on his home turf, or can it be a "defensive" attack on the turf of the civ your ally has attacked. (China let me "attack" Rome for five turns.)

For an attack which triggers the MPP, it has to be within your cultural borders, not outside of them. Bombardment also counts: bombing something inside the cultural borders willl trigger MPPs, bombarding troops outside does not. I think there is only one exception to this, and those are colonies: destroying a colony also triggers the MPP (I think, but I haven't seen it for a while so I'm not sure).

This is important, as you are perfectly allowed to bombard e.g. ships, as long as they are not in their own territorial waters without provoking the MPP partners into the attack.

How does the game decide who I'm at war with if I've MPPs with civs that begin a war? Is the target civ the civ that actually declares war? Or is territory where the conflict takes place the key factor?

You can have a MPP with both sides, and when war breaks out you do not automatically have to chose sides. But, the first one that is being attacked on his territory will trigger the MPP, and you will side with him.

Are you automatically at war with all civs that are already at war with any civ you sign an MPP with? How does cascading work when "everybody has MPPs with everybody?"

See above. You are not automatically at war when signing a MPP, someone has to be attacked for that. Cascading the same thing, you need attacking sides for that.

One great way of starting a world war is that you sign MPPs with everyone who wants to. If you do this in the course of a few years, most AIs will sign MPPs of their own as well. If you then declare war to someone (preferably someone with a lot of MPPs), and bait him with a worker just inside of your territory that he can attack on the first turn, he will attack, and all of a sudden the whole world is fighting each other. If you plan it right, you can make it so that you're only at war with 2 or 3 AIs, while these are at war with 6-7 of their own. In such a highly MPPed world, never start the first fight or it has to be on your own territory (or outside of the enemy's territory to be precise), or everyone will start a war with you. Just one turn of defense, and the fun may commence

DeepO

[DeepO]

Oh, BTW, baiting the AI with a worker has another big advantage: even if you declare war, the first aggresive action will mean a big hit on the War weariness scale. If you are sneak attacked (thus someone declates war and has the first aggresive action), your happiness will go up. If you declare war and the other has the first attack, it more or less stays the same. If you both attack and declare war, your people will be a lot more unhappy the next turn. This, in combination with MPPs, is why I will always play a first defensive turn in the modern age, or I have to be sure that I can squash my target in just 2 or 3 turns.

DeepO

[Arrian]

Avoid MPPs unless you want to go to war. The AI will always drag you into one.

If your MPP partner attacks another civ and takes a city, and then that city (which is now theirs, within their cultural borders) takes a counterattack.... guess what - you're in a war.

I know that bombardment counts, by the way. I triggered a MPP (AI to AI) once when I bombarded my enemy's coastline with a Battleship to cut their oil.

-Arrian

[vondrack]

DeepO, thanks for clarifying this. I haven't seen it worded that understandably anywhere.

It seems that the model is actually acceptably reflecting the MPP, which is a Mutual Protection Pact... you can't fool another civ into your war, unless your chosen "victim" actually attacks you on your soil. Only if the AI was smart enough to realize it... and did not take the DeepO's worker bite...

[jshelr]

Thanks DeepO. One last question from me. Does the AI always obey the letter of the law on MPPs or is there some back stabbing involved from time to time?

[DeepO]

jshelr, there is no back stabbing, but in rare occasions I've seen MPP partners declaring war on me. But this will mean that they are the first to chose to go to war, not following someone else. If you only defend, no MPP partner is allowed to chose the other side when you are attacked.
And as MPP partners are mostly polite or better towards you, backstabbing is rare, and takes a b*stard AI to do it (I've seen it happening with the Russians twice, and once with the English I believe, and each time it was when I was nearly winning)

[Inverse Icarus]

i hate MPPs.

I swear the creators of civ3 made a "world war 1 era" in every game.

The second nationalism goes all around, everyone signs an etangling web of MPPs, and then someone sends a suicide warrior to start the war up.

[DeepO]

welll, I love MPPs

Not because they are good in protecting the peace, but because you can use them to your advantage when you're in need. In many of my games, a lot of MPPs get signed when nationalism is discovered, but as everybody is most of the time too busy building up their territory, it will take at least 20 turns before the first wars start... by this time I find a lot less MPPs, the AIs will grow tired of them.

But this depends on the situation, if they feel their threatened by your growing power, they will sign MPPs, and even start wars themselves. When this happens, the best thing to do is to sign MPPs of your own, and let them be the first to attack. After the first few turns, you can just sweep up what's left of them.

DeepO

[edited: too many typos]