*** URGENT! *** Tech Tree 2

[Harel]

Not a lot, but here is my contribution...

[*]AEGIS Cruiser: First AEGIS cruiser is the US Virginia class, at 1971 AD.[*]Chemistry: The german guy was August Wiliham Fon Hofman. Chemistry should be set to the Offical "Crystal palace" exhibit, 1851 AD.[*]Courthouse: To my knowladge, the first offical courts were used in Egypt, after the Demotic tongue came to use. They should be put at 700 BC.[*]Mass Transit: First mass-transit system in London, 1863.[*]Police Station: The first police station was the order of the vigiles, that was established at Rome at 6 AD, after a large fire.[*]Electricity: First observed at 1780 AD, when the effect of electricty was observed on dead animals. However, Volta expriments with battaries should be the first date. His batteries became famoused in 1800 AD.[*]Electronics: It's hard to define when we got electronics, but the real development in using electricty was by Telsa. He's famous Telsa generator was built in 1899 AD.[*]Labor Union: The first movement toward a labor union was at the US, starting at 1866 AD.[*]The Laser: The move from the basic MAZER to a useful LASER was at 1960 AD, by Charles H Toans.[*]Miniaturization: Can only be applied to the discovery of the Transistor, at 1947 AD.[*]Republic: The roman republic was first founded in 509 BC, after the throw of Lucius Superbus.[*]Superconductor: The concept was first observed in 1911, but the first material to achieve super-

All dates from Britanica.com and my own Britanica at home.

[Harel]

Sorry, double post...
[This message has been edited by Harel (edited March 11, 2000).]

[NoviceCEO]

Although I should be wrong in many of my statements, I'd like to clarify somethings.

I said that cavalry and armor was invented by the Assyrians. I may be wrong for getting confused with English terms, but the Assyrians attacked with massive numbers of horsemen, which used heavy armor (in those days it was considered heavy) and weapons.

The mesopotamians where all pretty much Mystics and the Persians (which were not mesopotamians) were even more.

About Polyhteism I said it's been there since man exists, because I bet that since it learned how to think it blamed the gods for his problems.

About Leadership, monkeys did knew. But if you're talking about tatical leadership, it's another history. Almost every group of animals who live in groups has a leader. Even the ants have some sort of leadership.

Regarding the invention of flight, follows a quote from britannica.com:

quote: Becoming interested in aerial flight, he made a balloon ascent in 1898 and then began to construct dirigible airships. After many failures he built one that in 1901 won the Deutsch Prize and a prize from the Brazilian government for the first flight in a given time from Saint-Cloud to the Eiffel Tower and return. Shortly after the Wright brothers' flights in 1903, Santos-Dumont turned his attention to heavier-than-air machines. After experimenting with a vertical-propeller model, in 1906 he built a machine, the 14-bis, on the principle of the box kite, and in October he won the Deutsch-Archdeacon Prize for the first officially observed powered flight in Europe; in November he flew 220 metres in 21 seconds.

Concluding from that, the first flight with a dirigible airship was made by Santos Dummont in 1901.

Dummont is had as the official inventor of Flight (at least for the patriot Brazilians), as he build and flew the first "heavier-than-air" machine. Unlike the Wright's flight, his' was obsorved by plenty of witness. Date:1906.

Take a look at Wright, Wilbur and Orville, also from britannica.com:

quote: American brothers, inventors, and aviation pioneers who achieved the first powered, sustained, and controlled airplane flight (1903) and built and flew the first fully practical airplane (1905).

About Stealth Flight, I believe there were other stealth planes before the F117. But... taking a look at britannica, I can't find anything prior to it. I thought there was a plane, a scout one, who was invisible to radars and could fly at high-supersonic speeds. It was used during the Cold War, to spy Russia. If I'm not wrong, the plane was knew as U-2 (but maybe I'm just full of ****). As britannica says, most material about stealth equipments is classified.

I suggest you Yin, that later on you repost this thread, by parts (and don't post the second part before the first has been well discussed), so that we can be more accurate on dates and solve the different opnions.

Those were my bets. I hope I was able to help.

[Private Viper]

WOW!!!

------------------
Viper
viper@cnc.net.nz
CNCNZ

[yin26]

I'll update these soon...

Also, I think we should stick with Ata's suggestion about distinguishing the early instance from the "widely" used one. My reasoning is clear: We need to stop the misconceptions on some of these issues. The world simply will never know about Korea's ironclad ships unless they are given proper credit. I encountered enough of this problem in university (like professor's telling me the first novel and moveable type printing press were invented in Europe, when, in fact, they were already in Asia centuries earlier). You know what the professor said when I pointed this out to him?

"Well, this is a Western history class."

C'mon, quite a shady attitude for a professor making blanket statements about history, wouldn't you say?

As for the Ironclad, we can mark Korea down and also note when the first steam-powered one came around. In other words, it would be nice if people actually learned a fuller history of these things and let them come to their own conclusions about which instance was "more important."

Sorry for the sermon. I was having university flash-backs...

don Don,

Any chance you could confirm your dates? I suppose we'll need to confirm everything at some point, and I marvel at what you have "off the top" of your head, but I want to make sure we are correct. Thanks.

[Private Viper]

WOW!!!

There are way to many Civers with too much time on their hands out there

j/k

Great work guys, and I'm sorry I don't have anything new to add. Just to try and clear up the matter about stealth:

Yes, the U2 was invisible to the Russian radar, because it was unable to track objects that high. The Americans also had the SR-71 "Blackbird" spy plane, but it wasn't stalthy, it was just too fast to shoot down (it flew in the 70's, and it's still the OFFICIAL speed record holder for jet planes).

The first stealth plane, as far as I know, was the F-117 prototype, called X-something (sorry, I tried to find this out, but I couldn't find it anywhere).

Just my .02

------------------
Viper
viper@cnc.net.nz
CNCNZ

[Private Viper]

SOmthing went wrong with my mouse clicking. Don't even ask why I posted so many times, as I have no idea. Sorry again
[This message has been edited by Private Viper (edited March 11, 2000).]

[Private Viper]

Hmm... don't ask me how I managed to post this THRE times, but I did...

[This message has been edited by Private Viper (edited March 11, 2000).]

[Jon Miller]

Hi all,

first both nuclear fission and fusion have been reproduced in labratory environment

fission is what we use in our nuclear reactors, fusion is not yet economical(we put more power in then we get out)

superconductors have been observed in the usable range (far above 100 kelvin) but they are far too brittle (I could look through my APS journals to look for the most recent developements)

atom theory is the theory about the atom not that atoms exist and I would put it to Bohr (but some would argue rutherford)a little after the turn of the century

Jon Miller

[yin26]

UPDATED!

Also, per NoviceCEO's good suggestion, I'm now going to post this in parts in a separate thread so we can get detailed dates and background.

The first thread is here: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HT...tml?date=22:30


[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 11, 2000).]

[Youngsun]

Hello Don Don

Hahaha! Ironclad vs Turtle? Would you make any comparison between bi-plane vs stealth fighter? and do you think it is a reasonable comparsion about things that have about 300 years of time gap?

What's the difference between those two?(Turtle and Ironclad) The most significant difference will be thier propulsion technologies right?

Simply because the Turtle ship used manpower and sail for its propulsion does not mean its not qualified as an ironclad. The thing we have to concern most here has to be the concept of arming a ship with cannons and making a ship armoured. The other technologies whatever they use "steam engine" or "sail" can be used anytime if they are available to the current time period.

And decisive use and repeated use?
Sure the Turtle-ship played decisive role and the Korean fleet, though outnumbered by the Japanese to 5:1, could claim decisive victories because of this little toy. The Turtle ship saw actions more than 15 times and 3 of them were decisive and major battles which included more than 100 vessels from both side.

If this Turtle ship things annoys you much maybe we have to agree on this to classify them as World first ironclad and World first steam engined ironclad. OK?

Then why not say World first bi-plane,world first mono-plane and world first jet plane rahter than saying world first airplane?

[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited March 13, 2000).]

[don Don]

I hold that Advances don't represent the first occurance, but rather the first practical and repeatable use. They exist in some nacent form prior to becoming an Advance. That is why you know enough to be able to choose to study it.

Again, this is off the top o' my head, so the dates are fuzzy:

Just some comments on the Civ context as opposed to an absolute historic first:[list][*]Adv Flight: The DC-2 and DC-3 marked the development of the semi-monocoque airframe, in which the "skin" is part of the load-carrying structure instead of just plating applied to an open framework. I think it was '33.[*]Astronomy: Tied to Copernicus, it refers to the advances in both physical measurement and accurate timekeeping that began 15th c. and was fully realized in Brahe's measurements and Kepler's mathematical analysis. Copernicus' analysis was more conceptual than rigorously mathematical, but he was the forerunner.[*]Atomic Theory: There was a Greek philosopher who first proposed that each metal and other "pure" substance was composed of invisibly small, indivisible units called "atoms." What we call atomic theory today is really sub-atomic theory, which might be pinpointed to the discovery of the electron by, um, Johnson? 1880s?[*]Automobile: The auto was the toy of the rich until Ford made it practical. That's why I have long said that in Civ terms Auto and Mass Production are redundant.[*]Banking: Seems to refer to the credit draft banking developed first by Jewish merchants scattered throughout Europe prior to 12th c. but idealized in the Reserve Bank of England chartered under William II to finance a war with France, ~1695.[*]Bridge Building: Babylon (7th c. BCE) stradled the Euphrates and had bridges between the two parts; I doubt those were the first true bridges.[*]Chemistry: early 19th c., Mendeleev in particular. And who was the German guy who isolated potassium?[*]Code of Laws: Hammurabi was 18th c. BCE, IIRC[*]Engineering: I'd say Yuvo's 127 BCE first arched masonry bridge is the advent of engineering, since wooden beam bridges had been around for centuries.[*]Explosives: refers to invention of dynamite by Nobel, 1867. Everyone thought it was cool to blow up things without blowing up yourself in the process.[*]Gunpowder: the earliest decisive use in battle would be the seige of Constantinople, 1453. The Turks used fixed position 1m diameter wooden cannon firing stone shot. Later cannon ~½m dia. were carved of stone. Bronze cannon and compact iron shot were much less unwieldy, thus the military unit is tied instead to a vague advance called Metallurgy. As previously noted, Musketeers were first used as a distinct military unit in 1586, and since that is the unit made available that should be the date. I believe that an Italian militarist trained squads of men armed with arquebus in close formation drill a century earlier, but the idea didn't catch on.[*]Invention: The paradigm shift from the ancient and medieval wholistic view of mechanical devices to the analytical view of parts being separate things that could be improved or used in other mechanical constructions—credited to good ol' Leonardo da Vinci. He worked with a German locksmith and used the mechanical parts of a door lock to make a friction wheel igniter for a pistol: the wheel-lock. This "invention" idea spread to Germany when the locksmith returned there…[*]Iron Working: Hittites, 14th c. BCE. (Novice & Yuvo are thinking of bronze smelting when they say IV Millenium BCE. Note also that the Iron Age didn't begin until after 1000 BCE even though iron had been around for several centuries. Like Civ Advances, the named archeological periods are not established by the first use.)[*]Mathematics: Arabs got the decimal number system and the "zero" from India ~9th c. The invention of Algebra (by Arabs playing with the decimal system) predates the capture of Toledo, 1085, as there were texts on algebra in that library.[*]Navigation: refers to the invention of the astrolabe and the declination table, no later than 10th c. CE.[*]Theory of Gravity: Newton, published 1682 I think. Technically called "universal gravitation" as opposed to the "elemental gravitation" (Earth > Water > Air > Fire) of Aristotelian science.[*]University: As a structured system with uniform curriculum was a medieval ecclesiastical development. Originally there were three courses of study: Law, Theology, and Natural Philosophy ("science," sort of). It served more as a brake against loss of knowledge than as a prime mover of progress. That required the moveable type printing press (1495), which allowed books that cost less than a nobleman's yearly income.

If I didn't have to go to sleep I'd look up some of these dates online…

Ironclad v. Turtle: The Ironclad is a steam vessel (it comes with Steam Engine advance, duh), so Yi-sun's Turtle Ship doesn't count.

Yin: Stryfe's power loom comments should be in Ind rather than MP. Kroeze's 1800 BCE date for chariot supersedes my guess at the date of the Egyptian donkey chariots. My comment on Gudieren's tactics applies to Mech as well as to Armor.

[Hugo Rune]

I disagree about Astronomy. We're talking astronomy as a means of navigation here, and that is way before Copernicus.

And NoviceCEO, I really have to disagree about polytheism. The Pantheon of Gods kind of thing came about long after religion, before there was Animism represented in the game by Ceremonial Burial, which basically consisted of worshipping the spirits of the land, and maybe unnamed non-humanoid sun and moon gods.

[Atahualpa]

As for Dragoons 17th century AD is a bad guess. 16th century is a better guess Id say. I believe Francisco Coronado used some when he searched for the 7 Cities of Gold.

ATa

[Jon Miller]

Hi all,

Harel

yes, I know about the greek idea and that is where we get the word from

however that idea was a philosophical idea not a scientific and does not fit the picture (or I belive the tech tree)

the idea was not all matter was made up of the smallest division, but there was no science here just philosophy that happened to have some small truth (or actually no truth but it helped form a coherent model for a very short while)

I beleive it requires physics which I was the time when natural philophy began being a science (and became physics in the highest state)

I thought I was going to comment about something else but now I cannot rememmber it

Jon Miller