Attempting to rid culture from the game

[whosurdaddy]

Ok, so I have never really had too much of a problem, but lately in the games i've been playing (not sure, has culture been toned up in version 1.29?), all of a sudden i can barely capture a size 1 city without it flipping over in a few terms. This is makes the game virtually unplayable. AI wars result in no one capturing any cities because cities always flip back to their original owners, meaning that the borders in 2000 ad are the same borders as in 1000 bc. So i've decided to try and remove culture from the game, so that the game can once again become playalbe.

I tried taking away the culture points for all improvements in the editor, but then I realized I still need at least one building to make culture so that borders can still expand (cause a city with no culture has borders that does not even cover the whole city radius), so i left culture points for temples and palaces, but then for some reason cities still culturally flip like there is no tommorow. So has anybody figured out any ways to remove culture flipping from the game, while still allowing for city borders to at least reach out to the end of the city radius?

[Jon Shafer]

Culture flipping will happen whether cities have a lot of culture or a little. I'm afraid that unless Firaxis changes something itself, we won't be able to get rid of culture flipping.

I've found one good use of it though. In my Civil War scenario, a city in Maryland culture flipped to me (as the Confederates), which accurately represents the divided sentiment of the border states... they could have gone either way.

[zulu9812]

I've siad it before and I'll say it again.

I have NEVER lost a city to culture flipping. That's right - never. Not under any patch. Gained plenty, but never lost any. People who b1tch about culture flipping just don't know how to deal with it properly. If you don't like culture, go play a war game. This is a civilization game, and civilizations have culture. Deal with it.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by zulu9812
I've siad it before and I'll say it again.

I have NEVER lost a city to culture flipping. That's right - never. Not under any patch. Gained plenty, but never lost any. People who b1tch about culture flipping just don't know how to deal with it properly. If you don't like culture, go play a war game. This is a civilization game, and civilizations have culture. Deal with it.

I agree. I'm a big builder, and so I generaly have a pretty good culture rateing, and often in war, cities captured by the enemy were taken back to me due to culture.

If you want to get rid of culture, remove all the culture points from all of the improvments, but don't think it's fun, I tried, cities don't grow very well (barely make it to 8).

[Venger]

Zulu if I squeezed all the BS from your post it'd delete itself. If you've never had a city flip, then YOU are playing the game wrong. What do you do, garrison 25 units in every captured city? Were Civ2 and Civ NOT real Civ games because they didn't have the asinine pantywaist concept of 'culture'?

Venger

[N. Machiavelli]

My, aren't we feeling the love Venger.

[trevor]

What the heck is wrong with you Venger? I've never had a city flip either like Zulu. Could it be that you don't play the game correctly? When you get the message "We've captured -city name- but there are -number- resisters. We should garrison -city name- with strong units to quell them" do you not put any units in there? I think that Firaxis did a good job with culture, and if you don't like it then go back to Civ 2 or 1.

[Theseus]

Whoa, slow down guys.

I've had cities flip... although I think over time I've gotten better (sort of back-of-brain-subconsciously) at 'feeling' when there's a danger, and handling that city appropriately.

I like the concept... it's one more twist to deal with.

BTW, there was flipping in Civ2.

[Venger]

Originally posted by Thrawn05

I agree. I'm a big builder, and so I generaly have a pretty good culture rateing, and often in war, cities captured by the enemy were taken back to me due to culture.

And how retarded is that? The reason they take it back is because the culture system, annoyingly broken in practice, dictates that a captured city loses ALL culture improvements. And with the spastic corruption model, it's impossible to build anything in that city related to culture. Hence, it flips, unless you garrison it to death.

Note: I am a HUGE builder. Every city has every improvement. But that doesn't mean culture flipping is a decent gameply innovation - it isn't.

If Civ culture remotely reflected reality, the Germans couldn't have captured Paris, their entire army would be busy holding down culture rich Reims and Rouen.

If you want to get rid of culture, remove all the culture points from all of the improvments, but don't think it's fun, I tried, cities don't grow very well (barely make it to 8).

As culture is what moves borders, it's impossible to remove them.

Simply adding a culture slider or rate adjuster would have gone miles to fixing what many dislike about the game.

Venger

[Venger]

Originally posted by trevor
What the heck is wrong with you Venger? I've never had a city flip either like Zulu. Could it be that you don't play the game correctly? When you get the message "We've captured -city name- but there are -number- resisters. We should garrison -city name
- with strong units to quell them" do you not put any units in there? I thik that Firaxis did a good job with culture, and if you don't like it then go back to Civ 2 or 1.

Of course you garrison them, it's the only way to bring the city into order. However, I shouldn't have to garrison 12 units in a size 11 city when it took only 3 units to conquer it. Additionally, I shouldn't lose my entire army when it occurs.

If it's never happened to you, you can assume that those who complain about it and the Firaxis team that replies about it are what, making it up? Take a city on your enemies opposite coast, size 8 garrison it with 5 units of your choice, you WILL lose it, as well as all your units (!?!?!?!). Period. And that's stupid.

Venger

[Jaybe]

Based on experience in 1.17 and 1.21 games, if you have at least an "impressed with" advantage in culture, then culture flipping against you is unlikely. I have never seen a city flip either way in a short time frame; it always takes a few turns (your mileage may vary). The trick is to improve your chances before it happens to you.

I presume we have all gone over the flipping variables.

If you take a metropolis (say, for the wonder attached), then you want to:
(1) Garrison with wounded and "junk" units. I have even built swords and archers in the modern era for this single purpose! I normally just try to exceed the resisters if I have abundant luxuries.
(2) Clear the enemy's borders from the 21-tile work area ASAP! Fastest way is to RAZE the nearest enemy cities; or capture them if you think they are also worth repeating this procedure.

Once the opposing borders are no longer encroaching on your 2-tile radius, peace treaty is an option, but not until!

[Venger]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Based on experience in 1.17 and 1.21 games, if you have at least an "impressed with" advantage in culture, then culture flipping against you is unlikely. I have never seen a city flip either way in a short time frame; it always takes a few turns (your mileage may vary).

I can't recall the least number of turns -

The trick is to improve your chances before it happens to you.

I presume we have all gone over the flipping variables.

If you take a metropolis (say, for the wonder attached), then you want to:
(1) Garrison with wounded and "junk" units. I have even built swords and archers in the modern era for this single purpose! I normally just try to exceed the resisters if I have abundant luxuries.
(2) Clear the enemy's borders from the 21-tile work area ASAP! Fastest way is to RAZE the nearest enemy cities; or capture them if you think they are also worth repeating this procedure.

Once the opposing borders are no longer encroaching on your 2-tile radius, peace treaty is an option, but not until!

The inherent assumption here is : raze cities. An insulting option. I'd rather not play Civ as a genocidal maniac...

Venger

[Coracle]

Originally posted by zulu9812
I've siad it before and I'll say it again.

I have NEVER lost a city to culture flipping. That's right - never. Not under any patch. Gained plenty, but never lost any. People who b1tch about culture flipping just don't know how to deal with it properly. If you don't like culture, go play a war game. This is a civilization game, and civilizations have culture. Deal with it.

Oh, I see. Those many of us who despise this Culture Flipping junk are just too dumb to deal with it.

Soren concocts an idiotic concept that is braindead and ANTITHETICAL TO REALITY and pushes it down our throats and we are supposed to just open wide and smile. NO DEAL.

Example after example has been posted here and at CFF of ridiculous town and city flips, vanishing garrisons, border flips over resources, and the genocidal absurdity of "razing" cities of millions to prevent Flipping.

No fan of Civ 2 ever asked for this in five years of forum discussions after Civ 2 came out. But we sure got it anyway.

Just because Soren dreamed this baloney up doesn't mean we have to happily accept it. It is unrealistic; it belongs in a Fantasy game; and it screws up games, It only takes ONE flip of a conquered city to wipe out a large garrison killng an invasion, or one flip over a border onto a resource to start a war and destroy a reputation forever. It takes too many hours of play to get into a good game to then have it screwed up by a goofy Flip.

Bottom line: A lot of us do not want to deal with this stupidity - and that is all Flipping is.

Notice I did NOT say "Culture"; I said "Flipping". There are logical ways to incorporate Culture in a game and to reflect it's importance. There are even logical ways to do Flipping, if Firaxis INSISTS on shoving it at us. What Civ 3 has done is IN THE GAME MECHANICS is make Flipping ridiculous.

[DrFell]

Originally posted by Theseus
BTW, there was flipping in Civ2.

No there wasn't Bribing was the closest you could get, but that correlates as civ3 'propoganda'.

But there was in civ1... although it almost never happened. In many many games over a few years I only had it happen once... all of a sudden a Russian city right in the middle of their empire decided to rebel. Of course it was virtually no use to me. Never saw it happen again.

[Cyclotron]

Without entering this tired argument, I would like to point out that culture is too integrated in the game to be spirited out without consequences such as no border growth. It is simply part of the game, and an important part at that... it's not just an "extra feature" that you can eliminate from the game.