Questions from a newbie - long

[Willem]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I advise you not to increase the "Optimal number of cities" to a large value, even though you may fight corruption this way. The AI continues to build cities, until this number is nearly reached. Now imagine, on a large map 11 AIs try to build 100 cities each, which is impossible, since the maximal # of cities is 512. This results in LOTS of wandering settlers, the so called settler diarrhea, which some posters here *cough* remind us twice a day.

Better leave the value like it is, or increase it only slightly.

Good point. It's better to leave it as is and add "Reduces Corruption" to other improvements. The Temple would be a reasonable choice. And add another Forbidden Palace, or two, as was mentioned. One thing you can do to make things interesting is having a gov specific FP, so it will lose it's effect if you switch govs.

[RedBird]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I advise you not to increase the "Optimal number of cities" to a large value, even though you may fight corruption this way.

Maybe this should go in another thread (or if one already exists just point me there), but what happens when you exceed the "Optimal number of cities"? What happens to nearby cities, and what happens to far away ones? If far away cities are already crippled by corruption what harm would there be in adding more (if only for strategic reasons)?

[wisdave]

Originally posted by RedBird


Maybe this should go in another thread (or if one already exists just point me there), but what happens when you exceed the "Optimal number of cities"? What happens to nearby cities, and what happens to far away ones? If far away cities are already crippled by corruption what harm would there be in adding more (if only for strategic reasons)?

In my current game (large map, 7 civs), I was fortunate enough to discover an unsettled continent of fair size. I held back my world map from trade until I could build a ring of cities on its perimeter, and then began back filling. I managed to build, or culture flip, around 70 cities between that and my home continent. As I learned here, the editor was set for 24 as optimal for a large map.

The point at which I became completely frustrated with corruption was when improvements made absolutely no difference. No matter the production rate or the currency rate, the net effect of an improvement was zero. For instance, if a city was making 20 currency, corruption would take 19. By adding a bank, currency would increase to 30, but corruption would consume 29. That's when I came here for help.

I had never heard of the settler problem with a high optimal setting, so I will change that tonight. However, with the changes I made to the .bic file, I have science set at 30% and each advancement is coming in at 4 turns. Net profit on each turn is now at 1007 gold - I can rush buy about anything each turn. Now, to be fair, much of that income is from trading technologies around the horn to the other civs. Another lesson learned from you folks. But, corruption is now taking only about 200 gold per turn.

I never noticed any effect on nearby cities. The corruption was experienced on the ones far away.

[RedBird]

Originally posted by wisdave

I never noticed any effect on nearby cities. The corruption was experienced on the ones far away.

In my first or second game I was playing CivII style (keeping all captured cities, and building even more). At first I thought the corruption would just go away on its own...

Anyway, then I realized that nearby cities were hardly being penalized, and I had some space actually right next to my capital (it was mostly desert, but now that I'd had railroads it was viable ground). So I built a new city (Minot) right next to my capital (Washington). At this point I was probably at about double the Optimal Cities setting or maybe even more.

I had a third city (Philidelphia [one of the early cities]: close to the capital on the other side) producing, I think, a research center. Philidelphia had just enough production to build the research center. Next turn I realized Philidelphia had not produced the research center. I investigated, and found that it's own corruption had increased. I disbanded Minot, and the production for Philidelphia returned to normal.

So I'm pretty certain there are penalties for building too many cities. What I don't know is if I'd been getting these penalties all along, but hadn't noticed, or if they only started occurring once I'd passed some number of cities (maybe once, maybe twice the Optimal City setting, I don't know).

_

[Arrian]

Yes, exceeding the optimal # of cities will increase corruption bit by bit... the Minot/Philly example illustrates it perfectly.

Distance corruption is the real killer, though. Which is why the Forbidden Palace is THE best wonder in the game. Instead of having one non-corrupt ring of cities, you can have 2. If geography allows it, you can have a very large, yet productive empire.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

I just checked an old thread of mine with screenshots of one of my largest empires. Standard Map, Continents, 70% water. I counted approximately 60 cities, which is WAY over the "optimal" limit. Due to good Palace/FP location, however, my empire was a powerhouse... only 10 or so of those cities were totally corrupt (the majority of those were on different continents).

I find it's best to ignore the "number of cities" corrupt and focus on the distance corruption. Centering one's Palace and Forbidden properly, with rings of cities surrounding them, is the key to controlling corruption.

-Arrian

[RedBird]

Originally posted by Arrian
Yes, exceeding the optimal # of cities will increase corruption bit by bit... the Minot/Philly example illustrates it perfectly.

When does this reason for corruption first appear? Do you get it all along, or as soon as you're [optimal+1], or at double the optimal, or at some other point?

[RedBird]

Edit: Accidental double post.

This isn't the post you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move Along.

[alexman]

Arrian, I don't agree that the corruption due to distance is the only thing to worry about. I think the corruption due to number of cities is equally important.

Remember what a pain corruption was before they made courthouses and police stations increase the optimal number? The effect of courthouses on the distance corruption was never changed in a patch.

Also, the Forbidden Palace potentially doubles the optimal number of cities in your empire (if there is no overlap of productive cities with your Palace ring). That's why you see such a great reduction in corruption when you build it right.

If you go 1.5 times over the (modified) optimal number of cities, your corruption will be 95% no matter what the distance to the Palace. So number of cities clearly matters.

Taking your example, on a standard map, the optimal number of cities is 16. If a city has a courhouse and police station, the number increases to 32. If your FP is optimally placed, you get 64 cities within the "optimal". So your empire of 70 cities was not exactly "WAY" over the optimal.

RedBird: You get corruption due to number of cities after you build city number 2. But when you go over the (modified) optimal number, the rate of increase with number of cities doubles.

[RedBird]

Originally posted by alexman
If you go 1.5 times over the (modified) optimal number of cities, your corruption will be 95% no matter what the distance to the Palace. So number of cities clearly matters.

95% in new cities, and/or old cities, or distant cities?

Originally posted by alexman
RedBird: You get corruption due to number of cities after you build city number 2.

So each new city, even early in the game when you have only a handful of cities, increases the corruption of the already built cities?

_

[alexman]

95% in new cities, and/or old cities, or distant cities?

95% in cities whose rank in closeness to the capital or FP is more than 1.5 the modified optimal number.

So each new city, even early in the game when you have only a handful of cities, increases the corruption of the already built cities?

Each new city increases the corruption of already built cities that are farther away from the capital.

More details about corruption here.

[Arrian]

alexman,

Ah, I actually didn't understand the way courthouses/police stations worked, apparently. Interesting. Thanks for the info.

-Arrian

[RedBird]

Originally posted by alexman
Each new city increases the corruption of already built cities that are farther away from the capital.

Yes, thank you!
.

[Willem]

Originally posted by RedBird
I got a failure when I posted the first time. The failure said to do a reload. I did, and it duplicated my message.

I tried the "Delete Post" entry, but it gives me a permissions error even though I'm able to edit my own post. How do I delete this entry?

Just highlight everything, then type "Ooops"