Pathfinding: Putting in the yo-yo

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

i've used the blocking method a few times to felay AI settlers. What I've noticed is that Civ generally gets upset with me and declares war. Maybe its a fluke but I've had 3 or 4 civs declare war on me while i was blocking them.

[DeepO]

no fluke, civs get angry with you when you block them. However, dancing does not make them angry... or at least not as much as total blocking does.

DeepO

[ShredZ]

Another thing about their 'all-mighty' stacks of troops is: when a unit takes 1 point of damage they head for home, no matter how deep they are in enemy territory. If they have a stack of 50 troops, and I have 15 bombarding units, I can usually send them all home before even one of them gets to attack me... oooh but that will all change with MP.

[Catt]

Re: Pathfinding: Putting in the yo-yo

Originally posted by jimmytrick
I hope that Soren works on the pathfinding at some point [. . . .] If you do this you can yo-yo the AI up and down your coast line. Block and watch the AI retreat, open a hole and watch the AI advance. [ . . . ] I can't say right offhand how to fix this . . . .

There is a very easy fix for this and it doesn't even have to involve Soren. Since the exploit is available only to you, the human player, simply don't use it.

Catt

[Capt Dizle]

Catt,

Given the fact that military conflict is not a shooting contest, but rather, a deadly dance, it is in fact impossible not to utilize your knowledge of how the AI will move.

Sure, I can avoid the more blatant exploits. But given the fact that the AI becomes so predictable in its movement and given the fact that the AI is hampered by the movement restrictions in enemy territory, the only way the human player can totally avoid taking advantage is to adopt random movement with his troops or intentionally move troops into bad positions.

I am speaking here primarilly of defensive actions. When the human is attacking this weakness is not so apparent.

What we need is more randomness in AI attacking movements, more willingness on the part of the AI to attack strongpoints. In essence Soren has programmed the AI to make the best percentage moves in most cases; however, once the human player can predict the moves, they are no longer the best ones for the AI to make. Therefore, randomness will often be more effective because it cannot be anticipated.

[Catt]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Given the fact that military conflict is not a shooting contest, but rather, a deadly dance, it is in fact impossible not to utilize your knowledge of how the AI will move. [ . . . ] Sure, I can avoid the more blatant exploits . . .

Utilizing knowledge of how you think the AI will move is one thing. But, I thought this thread was a complaint that the AI couldn't figure out you were playing it as a "yo-yo." I thought that my suggested solution to the yo-yo "bug" that you hoped Soren would work on was simple and elegant .

In any event, controlling your own behavior should not be impossible, even during the "deadly dance" of warfare. I know that the enemy AI at war will likely (not always, but very often) march many tiles deep into my territory to try and attack an undefended city. If I wanted to, I could deliberately leave an internal city undefended, and bombard the hell out of the AI stack for several turns before garrisoning troops in that city. I could (1) ask the programming team to try and devise a fix for this "bug," or (2) I could simply resolve to myself not to unfairly exploit the limited "I" of any AI.

This is really not that complex, and it's not a question of "knowing" or "suspecting" what the AIs next move will be. It is simply a matter of fighting the best tactical war that you can without taking actions whose sole purpose is to induce the AI to take action that, to HI, is clearly illogical.

Resist the urge to exploit . . . resist the urge to exploit . . .

Try it. It is really not that difficult.

[dexters]

Well Catt, some people can't help but cheat and then whine that they can cheat.

These are the same people who blame everyone but themselves for their own failings.

I've personally never used the undefended city, or worker bait exploit because I just don't use it. I prefer to divise my own strategy. Playing a game where I build a maginot line and watch my entire front light up with fireworks as streams of AI troopers march into my land is far for entertaining than any of the exploits. Last I checked, winning isn't why most people bought this game. Yes, they want to do well, and presumably win a few games. But the fun part is winning a game at the edge of your seat.

As a human, the AI can have all their faults fixed and we'll still have a massive advantage in brain power, not to mention we get to save and the AI don't.

This whole whining business is beyond me. But I suppose people feel important doing it. Whatever float their boat.

[Capt Dizle]

Catt, I just don't think you understand my point. When I am playing the game with almost certain knowledge of what the AI will do I am left with two choices...

1. Make a good move or..
2. Intentionally make poor moves.

Its that simple. It is not just a question of exploiting the AI.

I am simply hoping that Firaxis will consider putting a little randomness in there. I just don't want to be sure what the AI will do. I want to be forced to plan for more possibilities and have the possibility to be caught short when I fail to do so. It would make the game more fun.

Dexters, your comments are pretty interesting. In what way is your personal attack on me relevant to global warming?

I am a little disappointed in you. Still using the "save" exploit? Shame on you.

[dexters]

jimmy, it wasn't a personal attack against you, but if you take it that way, then I can't help it.

As for using the save exploit, you still have an advantage by the mere fact you can save. That was my point.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by dexters
Well Catt, some people can't help but cheat and then whine that they can cheat.

These are the same people who blame everyone but themselves for their own failings.

This whole whining business is beyond me. But I suppose people feel important doing it. Whatever float their boat.

Dexters,

Would you care to explain at whom these remarks were aimed if not at me?

[dexters]

I was responding to Catt's point and agreeing that people should exercise self control and choose not to use exploits --one example being the reloading save exploit. I then went ahead and noted that even if all these exploits are fixed, we still have an advantage so vast that in many ways, it doesn't matter. the AI can always be exploited, even subconciously. I mean, we all exploit AI every decision we make, from our decision to garrison units to how to screw the AI out of an extra dollar. Those are things you have to do. The Yo Yo effect is in many cases part of it, but from the subsequent discussion, it's been revealed some people openly exploit it, and that is where I draw the line and note that if they are going to whine about it being an exploit and asking firaxis to fit it, then should at least be capable of using self restrain and not exploiting it to begin with.

Yes, AI is predictable, yes, it can be exploited. But no, no one has to exploit it if they know they can. Perhaps the context of message was lost to you, but it is not an attack against you, if it was, i would be quoting your message and refuting your points.

[Capt Dizle]

Personally, I respect people that have the guts to stand behind their insults.

[dexters]

good for you.

You're a moron if you take insult to this after my explaination. and i stand behind it.

[player1]

One way to solve problem is to FORCE AI not to go through your borders. (in peacetime)

Since most of those chokepoints are in your culture radius.
That way you fix both yo-yo and irrtating trepassing.


In case of war, AI should learn to know difference between ocean and live units which blocks movment.

[Capt Dizle]

Dexie? You stand behind what? Your explaination or the non-insults?

You have me confused. At this point I am willing to concede your point if you'll concede mine.

I am a moron. And you are gutless. Agreed?