How I Came To Own Civ3

[centrifuge]

Hex,
Don't be slacking on Cradle now

IW, How are you liking it? Civ3 does have it's high points.

[Cookie Monster]

It's great to see some CtP and Ctp2'ers here in the Civ3 forums!

Happy gaming guys and let us know what you think. I am curious about how a CtP vet will analyze Civ3.

[Chronus]

I am curious about how a CtP vet will analyze Civ3.

I am curious as well.

Um . . . Wombat . . . you DID download the latest patch, didn't you?

[Alex]

When I saw hex 'round here, I thought the same: "hmm... ctp vets playing civ3? Interesting." Come on, guys, tell us what you think about it.

[player1]

Hey!
I was CTP2 & CTP1 player too.

[Immortal Wombat]

Oh yeah, ought to get the patch

I will when I finish this game, I'm currently at 500AD, with my one city. I'm researching mathematics, the AI is building Universal Suffrage...
My culture level is 700ish.

I'm not gonna come close to this one, I'll probably get beaten to AC by about 2000 years.

I'll do a more detailed analysis later on, but for now, its an enjoyable game. I'm still trying to figure out whether the "one-more-turn" feeling is excitement or frustration. Everything seems to go slowly. Maybe its because I'm doing an OCC... And the turns take so long!!

[Lucilla]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Everything seems to go slowly. Maybe its because I'm doing an OCC... And the turns take so long!!

Disable the "animate our manual/automatic/enemy moves" in the preferences screen. That helps a lot.

[hexagonian]

I'll have to let you know in a few weeks, as I will be on vacation starting tomorrow, so I won't be able to continue my current game until I get back. But I do like the game so far - Some initial thoughts though...

So far, I'd have to say that I think the military AI is better in civ3 over modded CTP2 - but not by a great deal. civ3's military AI is more focused, which is the main difference between the two.

I also like the diplomacy model in civ3 over Modded CTP2, because it is a deeper and more exacting in the counterproposal aspect of the game. I like how I can finetune those proposals and counterproposals. Both games feature hair-trigger AIs who declare war at the drop of a hat.

I like civ3's strategy/luxury goods - a nice addition. Culture is cool if you get some cities with it - not so cool if your city defects.

The infrastructure AI in both games is good as far as I can tell - in civ3, advancement in tech seems to be very dependant on tech trading, something I am not overly crazy about. AI/AI tech trading in my Mod does not happen too much, yet the AI is very capable of maintaining a good tech lead over the human.

I greatly favor CTP2's PW over civ3's worker system, and also feel that the terrain improvements are more varied in CTP2 (Are there any sea tile improvements in civ3??? - none that I have seen yet)

Tech tree - Modded CTP2 wins hands down - much deeper... BTW, default CTP2 would also win this contest.

Same with governments - CTP2 wins because it offers a greater variety. In civ3 it seems that a player will use at most, 3 or 4 of the governments during the entire course of the game.

In combat, I haven't run into the spearman/tank element, mainly because I am still in the Medieval age. However, in the implementation of combat, CTP2 wins hands down due to stacked combat/movement (this is a preference though), and I can say with confidence that unusual combat results are not a part of Modded CTP2's format because of the use of HP and FP - something that has been documented to death in civ3.

Both have good graphics (civ3 is saved by Sn00py's terrain mod) but I like the CTP2 setup because the sprites are more clearly defined and larger, and the terrain is crisper - civ3's terrain blends too much.

I also prefer many of the interface issues in CTP2, from messages that I can read at any time in my turn (in civ3, they appear above a city and then disappear - where can I re-access them???), to the in-game info for improvements/wonders that appears in the menubox when selecting that item to build (in civ3 the only info in the city screen purchase area is for units - all other info has to be accessed in the Civotopia), to the larger buttons in CTP2 and the ability to single-click these buttons. I miss CTP2's button that allows a player to cycle through the units, rather than the use of the 'w' key to skip a unit.

civ3 offers a full city screen though...

Some of these are niggling issues, but some are also detracting (especially the messages).

Both games suffer from later game tedium, but true stacked movement/army groupings/army implementation - are all pluses for CTP2. This makes the actual game less of a micromanagement chore.

I'm not going to mention Moddability...

Do I like civ3 more than Modded CTP2??? - probably not, but it is closer than I expected.

[Cookie Monster]

Excellent post Hexagonian!

Your initial thoughts are quite detailed and left me hungry for more. I am a big fan of the civ type game and have both CtP and CtP2 as well as Civ2 and Civ3. My allegiances are to no particular game as for me I find all of these games entertaining and fun to play.

You and others knowledge of the CtP series far exceeds my own and therefor I find your initial comparison to be quite valuable. An excellent report comparing and contrasting the two games. I gather that you favour CtP2 slightly more than Civ3.

I wish there was a game that fused the best of CtP2 (PW, stacked combat, etc.) with the best of Civ3 (diplo, killer AI, etc.) into one great game. Now that would be a game to behold. Perhaps we can convince people from Activision and Firaxis to stage a massive defection and create a new joint software venture?

[hexagonian]

Thanks Haupt.

Suprisingly, it is closer than I thought it would be - to me, if civ3 was more streamlined in some of the micromangement issues like combat and grouping units, and had a more friendly interface in terms of gaining info, I would put it on par with Modded CTP2 (for me at least). I admit to a certain bias for CTP2 because a good deal of my enjoyment in CTP2 has come from the fact that I was able to create my own setup, focusing on a particular time in history with the addition of my own units/wonders/buildings. - and also bump up the passive AI to a much higher level.

To me, the game is not only about the AI, although that is the most important thing - but it is also tied into the ease which one can accomplish even the simplest task, whether it is moving units or accessing info. If I have to struggle to get these things done, then the game becomes a chore rather than fun. I never doubted that the civ3 AI was good (for a computer opponent), and my first 2 (short) games bore that out.

I do realize that part of my opinion is based on the fact that I know CTP2 inside and out, so the info in CTP2 is second nature to me. But there are efficient ways to present the in-game info, and I feel that overall, CTP2 does it better.

At the same time, I do feel that there are also weaknesses in the CTP2 interface - how I wish I had a single city screen with all of the info a la civ2-civ3 (unlike the tab pages that the CTP2 screens have) - at the same time, I miss the tab system of CTP1 which allowed a player to quickly pick an item to build without calling up a menu to block out the map.

And to me, there seems to be a greater depth possible in CTP2. When I got my computer, I started playing Lords of the Realm II. A great game, but when I moved onto the civ games (specifically CTP1), I couldn't play LOTRII anymore because the game didn't have the tech progression depth that I saw in CTP1. The same thing with EUII - a great game but I wish it had more depth in the tech tree (rather than Naval level 12, Naval level 18 and so forth.) I just feel that civ3 could have deepened the tech tree and the governments, to give a greater feel of moving through history.

Both game have their strong features and their flaws. Still, the bottom line is usually preference issues (like above) on whether a player likes or dislikes a game.

I do like civ3 though.

[Cookie Monster]

It's good to have an open discussion regarding Civ3 vs. CtP2. I agree that it is up to each individual to make his own assesments as to which is the better game. Only after reading what everyone has to say about a game and then evaluating the game for yourself can one make a good decision.

I wish more people could present their opinions in such a fair and balanced way as you have.

Happy gaming!

[Soren Johnson]

[SIZE=1] at the same time, I miss the tab system of CTP1 which allowed a player to quickly pick an item to build without calling up a menu to block out the map.

try shift-right-clicking on cities to change production...

[King of Rasslin]

Soren, the AI in Civ 3 is absolutely outstanding. However, I quit CtP because it sucked so bad. I'm sorry, but the truth really hurts. The Public Works system was so HORRIBLE. It was too easy to pump up a single city and make all of the wonders in it. Ugh...

Ok, I haven't even played CtP2. The original ruined my joy for turn based games for months, which is a long time for a fan like me. Luckily, I got Alpha Centauri, and that saved my enjoyment for turn based games.

As for Civ 3... The game isn't as good as Alpha Centauri. You can't call a global council on raising or reducing sea levels. You can't even make a pollution reducing pact in Civ 3.

Civ 3's saving point is its excellent AI. It is very bright compared to the idiotic AI of Civ 2 and even the great Alpha Centauri. Soren, please make the AI for Alpha Centauri 2! That game will be the greatest turn based game ever, even if I have to wait a decade to see it! Oh well, you can hope.

Soren, just stay away from CtP for the rest of your life. You just aren't wired the right way to program it. Sorry, but CtP was really, really bad. I haven't bothered with the 2nd one, and I don't plan to. The only redeeming factor in CtP was a different cost to maintain each unit. Seriously, marines should cost less to maintain than Modern Armor. Really, some unit balanced is called for in the modern era. Civ 3 will truly be great after more mods are made for it.

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
However, I quit CtP because it sucked so bad.

I've played just about every civ-type game to death. (Civ, Civ2,SMAC, Civ3, CTP1 and CTP2) I used to be right there with you about CTP1, but I gave the CTP series another shot, with Modded CTP2. It makes a world of difference, and turns CTP2 into a really enjoyable game IMHO. King of Rasslin, just a suggestion, but give it a try before you continue such an assault.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Lucilla
Disable the "animate our manual/automatic/enemy moves" in the preferences screen. That helps a lot.

I don't see how... I only have 5 units, and the visible AI ones number about 3 tops. Does it animate the ones I can't see?