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Culture! Another sinking (soon to be closed) thread by jimmytrick

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  • Culture! Another sinking (soon to be closed) thread by jimmytrick

    Frankly I think that most of the people who have played the Civ series and post here on the culture subject have missed the point.

    Culture, essentially, was present in Civ2. Here is one definition of culture by Webster :

    the act of developing the intellectual and moral faculties especially by education

    Temples and cathedrals, libraries and universities. In Civ2 these yielded greater research rates and happier people. It was an excellent abstract modeling of the cultural aspect of civilization. It allowed civilizations to flourish and mature without force of arms.

    The Civ3 rendition of culture is asinine. It seeks to link borders to culture, which is ridiculous. Historically the borders of nations or civilizations were based on natural geography, force of arms, religion, race, politics and the unpredictable effect of unusual leadership. Some of those are elements of culture of course, but some are clearly not.

    In Civ3 culture is represented as being the central source of power, other than military, that shaped world history. Culture is represented as being more powerful than religion; religion is relegated to a role as only a part of culture. In truth, religion has had more effect on the course of human events than culture by a factor of 10. Throughout human history when cultures clashed with religions it was always culture that changed to accommodate religion, on those occasions that borders moved it was a result of elitist exploitation of the religious views of the common man, not a revolt of the common man to obtain access to the culture of his neighbor.

    Culture has been in fashion lately, it is a politically correct concept, but as an empire building force, it is and always has been a limp wristed farce. Religion has been the catislyst; this was true for all of the 6000 years of human history but the last 150 and even then it has and does today play a prominent role in the affairs of men and nations. To the extent that religious influence has waned culture has been magnified not as an entity but as a mere part of the new paradigm, which is humanism.

    Firaxis could be well excused for this folly if their implementation of the concept of culture enhanced the gameplay and enjoyment of the Civ3 experience. And some would argue that it does. But there is no consensus in favor of it. It is clearly a design failure unless one sets the bar so low as to be meaningless.

    Another definition of culture by Webster:

    enlightenment and excellence of taste acquired by intellectual and aesthetic training b : acquaintance with and taste in fine arts, humanities, and broad aspects of science as distinguished from vocational and technical skills

    And still another:

    the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man's capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a company or corporation

    Clearly, if you think about it, Firaxis did a pretty darn good job of introducing culture in their masterpiece game, Alpha Centauri. Here, through use of social engineering and original faction attributes, clearly distinct groups evolve, distinct and unique to themselves. And they play that way!

    In Civ3 culture is reduced to bricks of manure that, if piled high enough, push their very borders of your civilization outward from the stench. The Civilizations, all for their accumulated culture or lack thereof, are all the same.

    It just doesn't make sense.

  • #2
    Wow you don't like a feature in game you hate. Someone call the pope.
    MOHonor - PJP

    "Better ingredients make a better pizza" - Papa John

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    • #3
      See, you revert to religion when stressed Mo. You just made my point.

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      • #4
        Seriously, they should just take out the stupid flipping element and victory condition and culture would be well represented in Civ3.

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        • #5
          Re: Culture! Another sinking (soon to be closed) thread by jimmytrick

          Originally posted by jimmytrick
          . . .
          the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man's capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group
          . . .
          It just doesn't make sense.
          Just think of game culture as religious culture; the Egyptian religion, the French religion, the Chinese religion. And every once in a while, when near a cathedral of a neighboring religion, a prophet arises and an entire city converts. There it's fixed.

          Gee whiz! What's your point anyway?

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          • #6
            i think jt has a point (jeez, i never thought i would say something like this)

            the way culture was implemented in this game is rather bland and oversimplified. but that just proves once again that firaxis was trying to make a game for the masses. they managed it. and jt did not like it. so he has a valid point, from his own point of view.

            anyway, this is fruitless. this thread will be closed anyway.
            I watched you fall. I think I pushed.

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            • #7
              The point I was trying to make was that culture was already modeled in Civ2 and SMAC, and in both cases better from both a historic and gameplay view than in Civ3.

              I think they should take flipping out of the game.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by jimmytrick
                The point I was trying to make was that culture was already modeled in Civ2 and SMAC, and in both cases better from both a historic and gameplay view than in Civ3.

                I think they should take flipping out of the game.
                Actually, the treatment of culture as religion models history pretty well during certain periods, specifically how a city might suddenly flip based upon the religious politics of the state. Consider how Henry VIII left the Church of Rome.

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                • #9
                  yes civ2 had a culture model: elvis as an advisor...
                  Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
                  Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
                  giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blog

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                  • #10
                    i dont mind the cultural flip too much because is see hat they were trying to fix, but I would have preferred a slightly more complex implementation. Part one would be to determine whether the city is even a candidate for flipping (based on the current rules of capitol distances, cultural differences). Part 2 would only be evaluated if part 1 was true and that would be to determine whether the city had enough dissenters to overpower the city garrison plus happy citizens. Also a weighted military unit would be useful as that 3 MA are more likely to hold a city than 3 warriors.

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                    • #11
                      I guess some folks have to have it spelled out. Temple in Civ2 makes people happy. Happy=More productive=Implementation of religious element of culture.

                      Library=More productive=Implementation of intellectual element of culture.

                      Don't you get it?

                      BTW, Mark, yes, I agree with you that including Elvis in Civ2 was great. More fun than any single element of Civ3.

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                      • #12
                        Zach, perhaps you are confused and thought England was part of Rome. Do you consider that a real life example of a cultural flip?

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                        • #13
                          Actually, Londinium was a part of the Roman Empire (before their culture changed when the troops garrisoning it left). The Roman walls and execution square are still there. In fact, the official City of London borders are the portion within the Roman Wall.
                          Seemingly Benign
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                          • #14
                            No one despises Soren's Culture Flipping garbage more than me.

                            But I've never suggested Culture as a concept does not have value; it does and I've said so.

                            But what is non-historical and idiotic is the concept of Culture FLIPPING cities and borders, and the manner in which it is implemented, and that includes the absurdity of razing metropolises.

                            Get rid of Culture Flipping. No border ever changed because one civ had more libraries and poets than the other guy.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jimmytrick
                              The point I was trying to make was that culture was already modeled in Civ2 and SMAC, and in both cases better from both a historic and gameplay view than in Civ3.

                              I think they should take flipping out of the game.
                              I said so many months ago.

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