Why don't I catch AI spies?

[Random Passerby]

I very much doubt that spies are like embassies and are only initiated by one of the two nations involved, as someone proposed. I AM fairly certain that if an attempt to plant a spy is discovered, then all further attempts on that same turn will also fail, and are all but guaranteed to provoke war within 2 or 3 tries; if you spread out attempts the AI is much more forgiving.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Fitz
If in fact there is automatic failure when you try to expose an enemy mole and there is none, this is definately a flaw. You would think that your spy in their capitol would have some skills in hiding his actions, regardless of the precense of an enemy mole.

You would think that... but in terms of the viability of Civ3 as a game, if different results happened when you failed an expose mission and when there was nothing to expose, even a failed mission would mean you knew that an enemy spy did or did not exist. A failed mission should give no information, because it failed. If you knew whether a spy existed even after failing, you would just repeatedly spend money until the spy came out. There would be no decision making process in counterespionage.

Domestic defense against spies is obviously supposed to be represented by catching the spy in the first place, or catching the enemy spy when (s)he fails in a mission. IMO that's a pretty bad way to represent it, but that may just be me.

What would you propose?

[Captain]

wait a minute, are the two actions separate - as they were in civ 2, or not?

that is, does mission failed automatically cause detection?
in civ 2, you could fail the mission but not cause an incident. or you could succeed in the mission, and still cause an incident.
or succeed and escape, or fail and cause incident. there were 4 outcomes.

what is the case for civ 3?

[Cyclotron]

I believe the Civ3 manual states that the chance of success is entirely removed from the chance of being detected. They are not the same.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Fitz
Just becuase the AI doesn't need it doesn't mean it won't take the action anyway. Even if it can see everything anytime it needs to, it needs to have the versimiltude of being human and acting in human ways.

I don't think the AI does see everything. I have watched them make moves to settle land that looked empty the last time they had a unit in the area. They stop when they see that its block with a unit and not from some magical knowledge.

The one map based thing I know the AI has special knowledge of is resources. Anything else seems based largely on paranoia so far.


Edit - left out some words - what else is new.

[Fitz]

I believe Soren of Firaxis has confirmed that the AI knows how many military units you have within cities. Note that this is probably not the same as seeing ALL military units.

I just think that it should be possible to get a mission failed on the expose enemy mole without triggering an event. If it is true that the chance of success and chance of getting caught are seperate, the expose an enemy mole should have the following results:

(Mole or no mole) and Failed and caught: Sir, we failed to expose the enemy mole and were caught. There has been an international incident

(Mole or no mole) and Failed and not caught: Sir, we failed to expose the enemy mole, but our spy managed to keep his identity secret.

Mole, Success and caught: Sir, we exposed the enemy mole! Unfortunately, our spy gave himself away and there has been an international incident.

Mole, Success and not caught: Sir, we exposed the enemy mole! Our spy managed to keep his identity secret.

No Mole, Success and caught: Sir, we failed to expose the enemy mole and were caught. There has been an international incident. (Note that this is the same as failed and caught.)

No Mole, Success and not caught: Sir, we failed to expose the enemy mole, but our spy managed to keep his identity secret.
(Note that this is the same as failed and not caught.)

Makes sense to me. If there are no seperate chances for success and getting caught (ie only options are success or failed and caught), then yes, I think success should indicate that there is not a enemy mole when there is none.

Edit: Domestic defense can be exposing an enemy mole with groundwork within the nation. That's what the FBI does. Since you only have two chances to catch a mole, the first when they infiltrate and the second by using your own spy, there is no representation of finding the spy once he is in. However, having said that I suppose if you catch the spy after he tries to do something, you could consider it to be this kind of domestic defense. After all, how are you going to catch someone if he isn't doing anything?

[Trevman]

Wow!
You guys sure are a lot lucky then me.
Anyways, the manual describes the expose mole operation as being conducted in the enemy capitol so of course a failed attempt could result in an incident.

[Destroyer]

I have never ever planted a spy sucessfully! It always causes a war, so I have given up. Spys should be non nationality, or you can disavow knowledge, and they can get info from your cities instead through interrogation.

I think democratic cities should allow a free look at cities anyway, as these days governments publish info on their military capabilities.

The only problem in Civ 2 was the fact you could just eventually just buy up all of your enemies cities!!

[Ethelred]

Plant spys AFTER you go to war with a civ. They won't get any madder at you if you fail.

Don't try to plant a spy more than once a turn unless you want to start a war. Better yet wait a turn or two. If a civ is in anarchy that is the perfect time to get a spy in.

[Coracle]

Fitz makes a lot of sense in his post.

Let's face it. Espionage is SO bad in Civ 3, even with Edited down costs, it justifiies reloading and trying again. The costs in the original game are so high they are ridiculous.

Moles? If there is no mole to expose we should be TOLD that and refunded our money. In the current game, if you try to expose a mole and there is none it always causes an incident. This is stupid, and yet another reason to justify reloading.

[Panag]

hi ,

there should be an option ; work with spies but without the embassy , .....in other words there should be an option to get rid of the embassy until the AI - civ invest's in it again , IE , to build an other one , .......

have a nice day / night

[gopher]

I don't want my spy's back, but the current system leaves a lot to be desired