Where Did Civ3 Go Wrong?

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
I hate to post this but its possible that Civ3 MP could be a pretty darn good wargame if they implement outposts well.

I can't believe I said that.

Freeciv has outposts (viewing range is increased by one when in a fort)

Does that make it a pretty darn good wargame?

[CapTVK]

DonJoel,

You can patch a lot in a game, but you can't patch...gameplay.

[Capt Dizle]

My idea of a military outpost would be a pseudo base buildable by workers that conveys defensive advantages and prevents AI borders from expanding.

Firaxis doesn't have enough on the ball to implement that. If they can't solve the idiocy of wandering settlers what can we expect.

[Barchan]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
My idea of a military outpost would be a pseudo base buildable by workers that conveys defensive advantages and prevents AI borders from expanding.

Sort of like what colonies should have been (or at least as their name heavily implies what they should have been, anyway) instead of the useless waste of a worker they are currently?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Beat the game consistently on Emperor using the "Oscillating War" strategy I came up with over in the Civ3 Strategy section every time I played.

Beat Deity the same way if I had anything resembling a half decent start (tundra starts generally took longer or ended in an eventual defeat cos I couldn't produce quite quickly enough...but I think I found the solution there too, tho I uninstalled the game before I could fully test that).

Good. You got one strat down. Now, can you find others? I can. Others have. The fact that you didn't look for them does not mean they are not there.

I should say that Deity is probably not beatable without conquest. That I will grant as a given. It may have been a mistake of the designers, but that is a matter of taste. But other strats are there, if you can handle playing lower levels.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
My idea of a military outpost would be a pseudo base buildable by workers that conveys defensive advantages and prevents AI borders from expanding.

Firaxis doesn't have enough on the ball to implement that. If they can't solve the idiocy of wandering settlers what can we expect.

The idiotic wandering FLOOD of settlers is Soren's braindead idea to handicap the human - I suppose by annoying him so much he gets distracted!

The reality is that those crappy little AI towns built anywhere are not defensible during war; sometimes flip; and produce very little for the AI due to terrain and corruption.

The AI just wastes a lot of its resources pewking out all those settlers. But since it gets so many cheats and freebies it hardly matters.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Coracle
The idiotic wandering FLOOD of settlers is Soren's braindead idea to handicap the human - I suppose by annoying him so much he gets distracted!

Must be working.

[ahenobarb]

It turns out the Civ III does all the things that everyone here wants it to!! They just named the game the wrong thing! It's actually called Call to Power II.

I got it last night and there is no way I'm going back to Civ III. This game rocks!! and with a C-based scripting language there is infinite possibility for scenario building.

I haven't seen a dual evolution of a game this interesting since Rogue/Hack/Larn.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by ahenobarb
I got it last night and there is no way I'm going back to Civ III. This game rocks!! and with a C-based scripting language there is infinite possibility for scenario building.

I really liked the peacetime "attack" units, corporate raiders, franchises, etc.

[Velociryx]

NYE: Of course I can find other strategies. Of course they're out there. My statement re: the Oscillating War was in response to the following line, by you:

"Let me tell you, 3 Step don't work all the time. Let me know when you win every game, 10 in a row on random maps without restarting."

In that at least, Vel is not wrong. And if my interpretation of the character of every game of Civ you have ever played is off (AI rapid expansion forcing you to do the same, pretty much forcing an early age conflict one way or the other), then by all means, post a save game and lemme have a peek! Cos in every single game I have ever played, that's how it came out. After a while, it was like watching reruns of some sitcom. Regardless of how charming it mightabeen the first few times watching it, the repitition got tiresome for me after a while. That, along with the reasons I've mentioned above, is why the game is no longer on my hard drive.

Again, let me say that I'm not belittling or begrudging anyone for liking and enjoying the game. That's great if you do! (And I've said myself it's a decent game that I dearly wished I could find more enjoyment in....it's just not there for me, I'm sorry to say). What I find a bit unsettling is the insistence on begrudging those who hold a differing opinion.

-=Vel=-

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo


I wasn't trying to be rude. Just speaking from a serious tone of voice.

doesnt' matter a whole lot. just a discussion. i'm out of the civ3 loop yet again as my hard drive just bit it and took all my saved games with it.

OK then Hope you get a new hard drive soon.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
I hate to post this but its possible that Civ3 MP could be a pretty darn good wargame if they implement outposts well.

I can't believe I said that.

jt said something nice about Civ3 This is one for the history books if I ever saw one...

[Velociryx]

Correction to my earlier post:

Per the tech tree, there are essentially two choices (well three, but the third choice is significantly weaker unless you're playing 'pelago).

You can:

* Beat the daylights out of your near neighbors (the approach I mentioned at some length)

* Beeline for the Great Library/Republic

* Beeline for mobility techs/Lighthouse (helpful if you're also Expansionistic, and IF you can get those techs in reasonably short order).

You can also play nice, sit on your hands, expand till you run out of room and wait til the AI decides it's gonna jump you (which is a slow motion version of the first strat, above).

You can, IF you use the ancient era to establish yourself as a big dog (probably by targeting and crushing at least one of your near neighbors in the ancient era...which again, is related to the first strat, above) try the diplomatic route, but that doesn't work well in the context of the game, given the generally neurotic attitudes of the AI civs.

So yes, those are some of the other "strats" I've discovered. Note that none of the others are as effective because they work against the fabric and structure of the game itself.

What about you? What other strats have you discovered?

-=Vel=-

[Dinner]

Originally posted by ahenobarb
It turns out the Civ III does all the things that everyone here wants it to!! They just named the game the wrong thing! It's actually called Call to Power II.

I got it last night and there is no way I'm going back to Civ III. This game rocks!! and with a C-based scripting language there is infinite possibility for scenario building.

I haven't seen a dual evolution of a game this interesting since Rogue/Hack/Larn.

I agree. The modded CTP2 is in many (most?) ways superior to Civ3. It is to bad Sid & company couldn't have swallowed a little more of their pride and copied some of the many good ideas found in CTP2. Having a built in scripting language is the single best new design idea I've seen in years; this is why CTP2 is still alive an kicking two years after it was last supported by Activision. I wonder if we'll be able to say the same about Civ3.

[Myrddin]

CTP2 modded, while fun as a conquest game (mainly because of its more sensible combat system which gives you military choices without having to move masses of units around the map) is not as challenging as Civ3, simply because the AI in CTP2 is far worse

IMHO the main advance in Civ3 is that it forces you to 'play the board', not follow a simple strategy ie you have to adjust if your iron evaporates just before you get chivalry or the AI beats you to a Wonder or a major war breaks out or a city reverts etc

There are still areas that could be improved - I would like more information on the attitudes and relationships between AI civs to make diplomacy more rewarding; more cultural buildings; more civ traits - but lets see what the XP brings