Stubborness DOES NOT Pay.

[Tormund]

It all started when I was playing as Emperor of the Babylonians on a huge map with every other civ...

Now I'm sure I'm like many others. I don't respond well to demands. I'm always happy to negotiate and I don't hoard techs, resources and luxuries. (What can I say I believe in free trade and peaceful coexistence.) So when a civilization starts making demands (for a territory map and a little gold) I tell him what he can do with his empty threats.

In this game I had just this situation occur and they decided that this just isn't good enough and declare war. They are on the other side of the globe and I figure I'm a peace loving kind of guy. I'll let them cool off and then propose peace, hopefully without a blow ever being traded. A turn passes and now another civ steps up to the plate with similar demands and they end by declaring war. Four more turns pass and I'm at war with six civs all because I don't respond well to demands.

All these civs are miles away and they are trying to attack by dropping the odd galley load of people on my shores. I don't even initiate the attack. They destroy themselves on my defenses. I figure that once they wear themselves out they will propose peace. However by the time they decide they want peace, they want me to pay them to make the treaty go ahead. I'm thinking to myself that you guys were stupid enough to declare war over a territory map and a few gold. Now you want peace and a lot of gold from me to make it happen. I may be a peace loving kind of guy, but I will not be the subject of extortion. Especially since I didn't declare the war in the first place. Besides, realistically I can't make peace with them all at the prices they are demanding and I'm NOT giving up any cities.

So the wars continue, only now most of them decide to bring a friend. So I'm at war with eleven civs. To add to my frustration everyone else is at peace with each other. By the time I decide to 'play ball', no one wants to be on my team. I can hear them saying, "What are you crazy, you're at war with eleven other civs and you want me to pick your side?" I keep resisting and building up the defensive units in my cities. Unfortunately I can't defend all of my improvements. These bastards raped and pillaged my land while I sat behind my fortifications helplessly watching on.

I'm thinking to myself that this can't go on forever. They must give peace a chance eventually. I mean as a civ when the first threat was laid at my feet I was a middle of the road civ score wise. So I wasn't the biggest threat and I wasn't the easiest target. Surely there comes a time when a civ thinks I've been at war long enough, I'm getting nowhere. Time to declare peace and move on. Well let's just say it didn't pan out as I hoped.

In the end two of my cities fell. Yes, I know. How could I let some of my cities be overrun. BUT there were ELEVEN other civs! Something had to give. At this stage war was really only taking place on a couple of fronts. My nearest neighbours, with the exception of one, had not abandoned their senses altogether and they were staying out of the conflict. And then it all changed. Those civs which were invited to join the party late in the game decided to throw around some money and invite a few more friends to come along and play. There I am at war with EVERY other civ on the map! All FIFTEEN of them! I'm a peace loving kind of guy! I know that these other civs know what peace is. After all, they are ALL at peace with each other. My mission as I see it, is to try to take over the world culturally and resort to violence only to put an end to the war. I keep up with or lead the front pack through shrewd trade and management practices. What the hell happened this time?

It was after my third city fell that I came to the conclusion that "Stubborness DOES NOT Pay"! I started paying civs bucket loads of money for peace. I started trading away cities for peace. But there is only so much to go around and I can't make peace with everyone. In the end I abandon the game. My end is inevitable. The lesson I learned is that sometimes you just have to give into the demands of other civs to 'give peace a chance'!

[Jack_www]

I never give in to the demands of the computer players. Like you I am more than willing to make a fair trade with the other computer players. But when ever the computer decides it's time to go to war, I take the war to their homeland. The only way you can force a faverable peace treaty is to take their cities untill they cry and beg for peace. Althougt if you are in a very weak postion then giving in ti their demands while you build up your empire would be a very good idea. But many times the computer is bluffing.

[Kilroy_Alpha]

But this is realistic! You were obviously commanding the armies of darkness, intent upon world domination, and the entire world decided to ally against to halt your incredible war machine. Although you feigned a love for peace, the AI saw right through your facade! ROOFLE OWNED.

[nbarclay]

In one game where I had two civs fighting me at once, both civs wanted gold in exchange for peace. I bought off the one farther from home, figuring I could take out France if Russia stayed out of it. Then I found that with Russia out of the picture, France was willing to sell me a tech at a slightly reduced price in exchange for peace since Russia wasn't helping them attack me anymore.

That gives me the distinct impression that buying off multiple opponents is generally significantly cheaper than the sum of their initial demands. (Of course that doesn't mean buying off fifteen opponents is all that practical. And I'm just working from one data point, so I don't know for sure that my experience was typical.)

By the way, were you building up your military during the early years of the war? Gaining military strength, even if you don't plan to use it offensively, might make peace look better to the AIs in such a situation. Conversely, a nation with a small military that's already fighting several enemies probably looks like an easy target.

Nathan

[Tormund]

You were obviously commanding the armies of darkness

I suppose your right. I didn't realise that two MPs per city would be considered an army of darkness. I think it more likely that they saw me as an army of light. Light on that is.

Although that said once I started churning out units I would have thought my military strength would have equalled and rivalled most other civs at the time. And that this would have been encouragement enough for them to consider peace.

That said it was all too easy for the civs I was at war with to convince civs that I was on 'polite' terms with to join their cause. They must have been paid plentifully for this betrayal. It strikes me as odd too. Why can't a civ be polite and at war with you? I mean I had no animosity towards these civs for being turncoats. I saw them more as mercenaries for hire. The least they could have done is maintained their polite attitude and communication channels. That way I should be able to buy a peace treaty with them since it is money NOT war that they are most interested in.

[Harovan]

Sometimes, when I'm not yet ready to fight because I'm REXing and have no resources left for a big military, I give in to bullies. Heck, what are territory maps and 22 gold if I own hundreds? I open a virtual account for this civ and write the amount I gave them down. I let them pay it back later, when I finished expansion and am the #1 civ, with 1000% interest.

Sometimes, especially on larger maps if the extorting civ is far away, I deny to give in. Mostly they declare war then, but they need at least 1000 years to reach my borders, so what? I use the time to build a mobile force. Usually, after 10-15 turns or so, they ally up with a little friend who is my neighbor. At this time, I already have a countable force, I switch my entire production to horsemen and rush the ally. When the original warmonger arrives, I make peace with him (sorry guys, you went the long way for naught) even if it costs a little, and I let pay the ally for this.

For example, in my recent (huge, 16, monarch) game I (Iroquois) was bullied by the Germans (about 30 or 40 tiles away) for a TMap and 22 gold. Refused and got war declared. After a few turns the Romans (my neighbors) joined in. After about 5 turns tough struggle with their legions, I (#1 civ) succeeded to cut their iron and reduced them (#3 civ) to a civ of 8 small size 1-3 cities. Finally, the Germans (#2 civ) arrived at my borders. I sent them home with about 60 gold (I had all my forces in Rome) and in the same turn made peace with the Romans, getting over 100 gold, 2 techs, 1 worker and 3 of their remaining cities. Not a bad deal, after all.

[Tormund]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Sometimes, especially on larger maps if the extorting civ is far away, I deny to give in. Mostly they declare war then, but they need at least 1000 years to reach my borders, so what? I use the time to build a mobile force. Usually, after 10-15 turns or so, they ally up with a little friend who is my neighbor. At this time, I already have a countable force, I switch my entire production to horsemen and rush the ally. When the original warmonger arrives, I make peace with him (sorry guys, you went the long way for naught) even if it costs a little, and I let pay the ally for this.

I like your approach and it shows merit, but it isn't the way of the peace loving civ. I was wanting to walk the cultural path and not have to hurt anyone on the way there. They can hurt themselves on my forces, but I was looking for acquisition through conversion.

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I give in to bullies. Heck, what are territory maps and 22 gold if I own hundreds? I open a virtual account for this civ and write the amount I gave them down. I let them pay it back later, when I finished expansion and am the #1 civ, with 1000% interest.

Now this is an approach that I am definitely going to adopt. Since I can't walk the stubborness line, I'm going to set me up some virtual accounts.

[Ethelred]

I find it usefull to pay the extortionists IF I think they can cause me real problems. Then they go on The List.

What I like to do after I pay them is imediatly try to make a deal with them. One where I make a nice tidy profit. For the maximum unlike my trades with friendly civs where I don't take it to the last nickle.

I have noticed that the serious extortionists are usually on the warpath for some poor victim. They have run out of room to expand and they have troops ready to invade someone. So if you pay them off they will usually go to war with someone else. Someone you may be able to make use of.

[Zachriel]

Some civilizations consider it an insult not to pay tribute to their gods and kings. Usually the amounts requested are minor. It's a cultural thing, a small gift to show respect. In any case, future historians might think you foolish not having paid such a small sum to prevent a world war.

On another, related point: On Emperor, your money is worth less than the AI's. Think of it as paying in Argentine pesos. So, when it comes to bribing rivals for alliances, you are at a disadvantage. Bring plenty of pesos to the bargaining table.

[Inverse Icarus]

this is why it pays to be a warmonger

can't wait to see you in MP

[Harovan]

UberKruX

Once upon a time (pre 1.17f), I was a builder, but the patch has taught me, that 2 or 3 early rushes certainly do pay. If this tendency persists, you'll call me a bloodthirsty b@stard after 1.18f .

[Arrian]

I've almost completed converted to warmongering. Japan is my new favorite civ. The AI never gets a chance to demand squat. They're already dead, providing me with cities and leaders. Also, I have taken advantage of peace treaty re-negotiation with civs I am not ready to attack yet. It works rather well.

If you are going to try the (mostly)peaceful builder route, and don't want to give in to demands, I strongly encourage buying allies RIGHT AWAY. Say the mean, nasty, demanding Bismarck man declares war on you for refusing to pay him off. Call up whoever is inbetween you and Germany, and get an alliance. Sometimes it doesn't cost all that much. Sometimes they want an arm and a leg, but consider this: if you don't do this, the AI will. That's what happened here - resulting in an 11 vs. 1 cascade.

-Arrian

[dawidge]

I would much rather pay all of Bismark's neighbors the same money/maps that B demanded as an example to the AI of how not to conduct relations with me. It has worked to great success.

I once played the Greeks with Germany just across a narrow isthmus. I only had 1 warrior in each city and a hoplite in each of the two cities on the German border. Bis pops up and demands 53 (all I had) gold and a territory map, declaring war when I tell him to get lost. I contact the Zulu (who are just beyond Germany)
and give them the 53 gold and territory map to pound on Germany. Eventually, Shaka and I kicked him off the island. Nobody tried to threaten me again that game.

It may have been related to the fact that all those warriors became swordsmen, or that I beefed up each city to have two hoplites by the time it was over. More likely, it was that 12 of the 16 German cities had gone Greek.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Arrian
I've almost completed converted to warmongering.
-Arrian

I avoid war, but war is unavoidable. Nearly every Age is scarred by battle.

[Inverse Icarus]

civ3 DOES lean a little toward the builder strategy, a lot mroe than civ2, but warmongers can kill the builders and take their buildings