The late game is too American

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Ethelred


Where is Lombard St. then? Isn't it downtown or near it?

The Japanese tourists love that place. I only see the pictures they take so I don't know exactly where it is. I haven't been to SF since I was a kid.

For those of you that don't know Lomard St. is the curviest street on Earth. It gets used in movies for jokes.

Of course it USED to be a straight street.

It is downtown and now there is a COP station there to control traffic. Years ago you could drive down any time now forget it.

[Sandman]

I retract my earlier post. I found a map of San Francisco. Gah... too gridlocked.

However, I stand by my claim that a strong grid layout was not a completely American invention. Here's a link to a map of Pompeii:

http://www.pompeii.co.uk/cd/map.htm

[awesomedude]

Originally posted by Ethelred


Where is Lombard St. then? Isn't it downtown or near it?

The Japanese tourists love that place. I only see the pictures they take so I don't know exactly where it is. I haven't been to SF since I was a kid.

For those of you that don't know Lomard St. is the curviest street on Earth. It gets used in movies for jokes.

Of course it USED to be a straight street.

Good point. You've got me there... I totally forgot about Lombard... . I'm sure there are plenty of other examples aswell. I see Lombard more as a tourist attraction than anything else though... I very seldomly pass by there.

Blockier than the "avenues" around Golden Gate park you don't get though and the very downtown area is the same way. I'm not saying that I despise US cities... they're just different, but still have their own charm. Walking up a hill to see the downtown area with its skyscrapers gradually becoming visible is a great view.

[spicytimothy]

Re: Re: don't understand

Originally posted by Ethelred


Yes Hollywood.

Its not a city.

Really. Hollywood Hills is a city. West Hollywood is a city.

But not Hollywood. Its part of Los Angeles.

LA has some 50 story building these days. Well I think there is at least one. Hope it stays in the next big quake.

Well duh! I live in Pasadena, u think I don't know? that's exactly what I'm saying... ppl associate cities with diff. things and skyskrapers is not always what the association is. I hv never a tourist arriving in L.A. says: let's go to WEST hollywood... or the Hollywood neighborhood of Los Angeles... u know what I mean?


stop picking words people......

spicytimothy

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Trevman
This is obviously just an another European American-hate rant. I don't know why you guys across the sea hate us so much. Are we not liberal enough over here or what? Anyways, this game was bleeping developed in America and its main audience is Americans. If you have a problem with that, than just boycott America, we don't care.

1. There's nothing wrong in critique. Be it you or other people.
2. Main audience America? Infogrames is a French company, and it has bothered to translate it in many languages. Blockbusters such as Civ3 can sell a lot more in other languages version than just in English.
Besides, we must also consider the utter stupidity of your point. A "main audience" of a product can never determine its "thrutfulness" or quality. Ultimately, objectivity must decide. (Nazi propaganda was true, because the German agreed. Sure, this is an extreme example and US is not nazi, but this basically demonstrates how imbecile was what you said).

BTW, there is a mistake in your signature.

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Originally posted by Trevman
This is obviously just an another European American-hate rant. I don't know why you guys across the sea hate us so much. Are we not liberal enough over here or what?

Boy, boy, boy ...

Are you being oversensitive or immature about this one?

In his first threads Zannhart sounded like you, but I guess he's already figured out that Awesomedude :edit:- I meant Sandman -wasn't 'bashing America' at all.

If you had read everything you would have figured that out yourself. Right now you're just being !

Anyway, who's bashing who?

Originally posted by Trevman
This is obviously just an another European American-hate rant. I don't know why you guys across the sea hate us so much. Are we not liberal enough over here or what?

In my country there's a saying: 'the higher the trees the more wind they catch', meaning: anyone in a leading position (be it pop stars, politicians, nations, ...) will have to deal with different sorts of criticism.
If you can't (under)stand that and if you're unable to make the distinction between a non offensive post (Awesomedude's) and a real offensive one (check out elsewhere on previous threads) you still have to learn a lot.

Criticism is NOT equal to hatry !!!!

I myself, as many important European but also other world leaders find many reasons to criticize some of America's doubtful international politics. Bush isn't exactly what we refer to as a 'capable/intelligent' leader. Nevertheless, we'll also step in the ring to defend Americans if they're threated injust.

Please Trevman,
try to exagerate less the next time you feel a sudden attack of pattriotism. If you want to discuss politics (and if you're actually able of it) there are other ways.

Just don't generalize like you did. Just isn't friendly/civilized/reasonable at all.

Awesomedude/Sandman's done no harm at all.

Spicytimothy's also stated this before and all reasonable readers will have to agree, I suppose.

Don't consider this to be another 'America bashing' post, as it isn't!

I'm just bashing you !

Fair?
AJ

PS: To be 100% clear about my last remark: it's just a little joke.

Get it?

[kailhun]

Perhaps the game is not so much too American as too western. There is basically one way a civ can look at the end of the modern era and that is western. Given the way civilization has developed, both on the planet and as a game, that is not too surprising.
However we are currently playing civ3 and thinking about civ4, so perhaps this should also be addressed:

How can the modern era be made culturally diverse?
And
Is this something the programmers should be concentrating on?

Robert

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Kailhun,

it's already discussed before, but in civ2 'fundamentalism' was included and it actually diversified modern age (even introducing a UU --> the fundamentalist IIRC, could be a CTP-feature though).

So, for starters, I recommend more types of governments to better represent real life's modern age. (I leave the suggestions for the pro's ) Some special 'government characteristic features' may be included as well.

Kind of silly they left fundamentalism out of Civ3. Too powerful they've concluded. So why didn't they make it less powerful than (or then )?

Diminishing choices of gov. seems quite illogical and a step back to me.

AJ

[nato]

I guess that makes it a westernization vs modernization issue. What would it mean to be modern, but not western? Can you be modern without being western?

In this topic, people usually point to Japan as the only modern but not western (or only superficially westernized) country.

I'm not sure how alternate paths to modernity could be handled in Civ. Everything I can think of gets too science fictiony ... it also leads to treating the different civs as more different from each other than Civ has before (though Civ3 has done this with traits and population points ethnicity).

The only thing I can think of is graphics, which is just cosmetic. Only other thing I can think of is Unique Improvements, Unique Governments, Unique Techs or even Unique Tech Trees ... making each civ very unique (like say Starcraft races as opposed to AOE races).

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Nato,

Isn't China a 'modern' nation? And South Korea and many other so called Asean Tigres?

Technologically: yes.
Culturally: yes.
Politically: yes.
Scientific: yes.
Militaristic: yes.

So yes of course, you can be modern without being western! (some Apolyton-readers from other than Western nations won't like what you've suggested Nato --> or maybe we misunderstood you)

AJ

[Drug zBla]

Listen guys (or that other thing, what's it called?), I'm new here & to the game also, but this theme was quite intrguing.

O.K. we all, probably, agree that Americans rule many thing in this sad, sad world of ours, and that that gives them right to be overconfident and even cocky. I, myself as a citizen of Europe, and as an admirerer of it's culture and astonishing history don't like that too much, but it bothers me not, 'couse they'r so far away, and it was cool, as I remember, till about 10 years ago.

What happened? The cold war was defenetly over, Berlin wall was brought down, USSR was broken apart, communism took that final hit that made it completly unpopular. Even Yugoslavia broke apart, and afther the war my country achieved freedom, afther allmost 1000 years.

So what does this got to do with the game? USA achieved total victory in allmost every field, and we all know that history is written by victors, and that is the case here.

Here is an exaple: Twin towers in N.Y., defenetly a tragedy, and guys responsible should be brought to justice, but look at it from this angle: cosidering only human casualties, in N.Y. about 5000 people were killed, but in Hiroshima & Nagasaky over 200,000 people were killed, and it was not considered to be tragedy, but victory. Not to mention radiation...

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Interesting post Drug zBla,

(I suppose you didn't use any whilst writing this ?!)

However, it's best not to start all these things over again.

There was a rather recent (started one or two monts ago?) and very large thread started by Player1 that got 'hijacked' by a similar discussion/debate/flaming about world powers and the nuclear bomb.

I guess it's best to not start all this over again here .

The interested people could look up the thread I've just mentioned and continue over there (I'm sorry Player1 ).

edit: can't find it back, maybe not started by Player1?

Agree with most things you mentioned and nice to hear from you.

To All United Peoples Of Our Common World.

Amen .

AJ

[Drug zBla]

I had no idea about that thread, and i wouldn't like to start a fierce discussion about ww2 and stuff, but it was just a thought.

But i don't agree that an eastern "way" coudn't be modern, just becouse it isn't. Or it isn't from our viewpoint. But what would have happaned if in 15th century Japan or China colonized American continent?

Western civilization is to rigid to open their views to unknown facts of the east, and to accept tham as equaly modern, but just different.

So, open your minds, you westerners and accept everyone as they are.

[Hmmm]

I think that if Civ III is to remain true to the idea that you can change 5000 years of history, and more or less everything to do with everything, then it should try to allow more flexibility, like allowing more governments, allowing cities in the industrial and modern ages to look different for different cultures, just like in all the other ages. Also, I don't like the idea that Free Market democracies are the last word in governments...and they offer loads of advantages, and no major disadvantages, especially since democracy is the most flawed government in real life. I found it very funny when in the manual it stated that "workers, inspired by the free enterprise system, work 50% harder than normal."

[Drug zBla]

I agree.

Communism is, in theory, an ideal form of government, and the fact that corruption is, in civ3, on the lowest level in democracy , is just, well, you know, stupid. A true communist state would have level of corruption down to 0. Ofcourse that the ideal communism isn't possible, but, as a form of government, it shouldn't be so inferior do democracy in civ3.

And why is there no fundamentalism, or even militarism?