The late game is too American

[Sandman]

Let's get back on track

I'm not questioning whether America should be in the game, that's a question for the civilizations forum. Although, I never pick them because of a gut feeling, it's the same for the English, Iroquois and Zulus.

The skyscraper debate, well, it's a bit OT so who am I to complain?

Now, the wonders which are 'American'.

Wall Street: I think that this one is pretty silly. What's wrong with just a 'national stock exchange' or something? It's a small wonder, but it's not like there are 'Wall Streets' all over the world.

Hoover Dam: There are bigger and better dams.

SETI program: It's a charity in real life, is it not? Still, that big radio telescope is reasonable candidate for a wonder.

The UN: Can't really argue with this one. Thanks America.

Manhattan project: Well, I'd prefer this to be a small wonder, but as it stands it's okay.

Apollo programme: Since it's a small wonder, it should have a more generic name. The Soviet work on space station development was just as important, if not more so, for establishing a human presence in space.

The Pentagon: Hmm. On the one hand it's an impressive, distinctive structure, but on the other hand it's not like a military command centre must have five sides. Change it to something like 'military nerve-centre' OR upgrade it to a great wonder.

Strategic missile defence: Doesn't have a blatantly American name, and the Soviets toyed with the idea as well, so I guess it's off the hook.

Well, that's all the wonders. Oh, for the record I disagree with the Forbidden Palace name as well.

There is another American tech which I think is a unjustified addition: Smart weapons. I really don't think that this is anywhere near something like writing or industrialisation. It's a concept which is infused with a heady dosage of propaganda, and may not be a good as it is cracked up to be.

Whenever the US and it's allies get into a conflict (every six months or so it seems) the smart weapons are touted as being low on 'collateral damage' but for every laser-guided bomb, there are plenty of dumb bombs like those daisy cutters used against the Taleban. And of course smart weapons are expensive, and often go wrong.

That's all for now. Comments/flamings?

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

Wall Street should be named for the first one, wasnt that the London Exchange?

I saw hoover dam on a list of modern wonders years ago. Not so much for its power production but for the taming of the Colorado and its huge benefit downstream. Given the game benefit, something like the Tennessee Valley Authority would have been a more appropriate name.

Manhattan should have been a small wonder. I dont understand the concept at all of making this a major wonder benefitting all. thank goodness the taliban didnt get the bomb.

Apollo Program should have been named for the Soviet space program, after all the Russians got there first.

I like the idea of naming wonders after specific real life things. I like the pentagon for that reason over a generic name. BTW, do other countires have specific names for theirs?


BTW, no flames were produced by this reply
Yeah, whats with the forbidden palace? Doesnt that usually refer to China's attempt to have been isolationists at some point?

Whats wrong with smart weapons? i think its drastically cut down on collateral damage. Imagine trying to hit targets inside large cities using old-fashioned bombs. I bet casualities would have been far greater than the occasion wayward smart bomb.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by nato

However you forgot the modern armor! It is an M1 looking tank. This goes right with your post as American ... and also in a way you probably didn't think!

One of the big special things about the M1 is the armor and the chobham brick thingies ... this goes right with stealth and AEGIS.

Could be he didn't mention it because chabram armour is a Brittish invention. The Abrahms wouldn't have been built without it as tanks were fast becoming expensive targets for cheap anti tank weapons.

[Odd]

I think as I'm not american nor have anything against them (I believe some actitudes of the american government sucks, but my own goverment sometimes do **** too, besides I thank america for flooding the world with hamburgers and hollywood blockbusters, for I love them).

I can see much of the confusion here was made because the americans are very sensive to critics about everything that's connected to them. They're not wrong to do so, as they have been overly criticized, and 90% of people flaming the US say ****. US is a superpower, and if they commit a very little misteak the can **** up a coutry due to they power. Thanks god you haven't done serious mistakes lately.

I believe that it would be possible, and would be good if done, that the modern era could be a little bit less american. But just a little, because america is ahead, so the more developed you get the more you'll look like the US. But just in a sense.

However, if the "american flavor" was taken out of the game completly, it would make it unrealistic, for all of us are influenced a bit by the american civilization.

Btw, not only modern era is too american, but industrial era is too european. Just look to Shaka Zulu. But it's impossible to detach completly industrial era to Europe. Just imagine if the greatest advance in industrial era were Argentina's cattle farms

P.S. Some people are very ingenuous to think that the only reason other country's industries can compete with the US is due to slave labor. Show me how a 13 year slave in a bamboo backyard fatory can produce millions of tons of steel with highly competitive prices and we'll be rich. Are asiatic eletronic components designed by 13 year slaves too?

[Ethelred]

Re: don't understand

Originally posted by spicytimothy
buildings... Miami is associated w/ the beaches, Los Angeles with Hollywood, Santa Monica and Bev Hills etc, San Fran with Golden Bridge...
spicytimothy

Yes Hollywood.

Its not a city.

Really. Hollywood Hills is a city. West Hollywood is a city.

But not Hollywood. Its part of Los Angeles.

LA has some 50 story building these days. Well I think there is at least one. Hope it stays in the next big quake.

[nato]

Uberkrux - Did you read the thread? Your post about civilization doesn't make sense; thats not whats being discussed.

Ethel - That is a good point. Actually I knew that the British invented the armor (go UK!) but the M1 is distinctly American I think, so that is what I was getting at kind of. What you say about AT weapons is exactly what I was getting at in length in that post, about 'a desperate attempt to stave off obselesence due to all the missles flying around'.

For the whole city thing, there is one quote I remember. It is saying that the gridlock style is distinctly American, because American cities were mostly planned while Old World ones just developed "naturally". One early European visitor said the gridlock blocks were so monotonous, that after a while the eye begged for at least a crooked street.

However, I have to say discussing the cities seems less useful to me. That is just a graphics thing really, and I don't know how you would display non-American big cities except with sky scrapers anyway.

Discussing late game units and techs seemed more substantive and less cosmetic, but that is just how I see it.

[nationalist]

P.S. Some people are very ingenuous to think that the only reason other country's industries can compete with the US is due to slave labor. Show me how a 13 year slave in a bamboo backyard fatory can produce millions of tons of steel with highly competitive prices and we'll be rich. Are asiatic eletronic components designed by 13 year slaves too?

Steel is not made in backyard factories, its made in government subsidizeds or foreign owned factoys. They can produce stele cheaply because they don't have to follow those "pesky" labor and environmental controls that American steel factories have to follow. Therefore, they can pollute all they want and do whatever they want to their workers. I mean, what does their company care if they pollute their country, or if a couple dozen workers die? No, laborers do not design electronic components. Scientists and technicians do that. High tech production is different than textile or industrial production, and equires an extremely sophisticated manufacturing area. Third world countries aren't up to this. That is why Japan is the #1 electronic producing company in the world and the U.S. is #2. However, this argument is way off topic on a Civ 3 board. I'll gladly carry it on with someone in the off topic board.

[Sandman]

Sorry to hijack my own thread, but...

For the whole city thing, there is one quote I remember. It is saying that the gridlock style is distinctly American, because American cities were mostly planned while Old World ones just developed "naturally". One early European visitor said the gridlock blocks were so monotonous, that after a while the eye begged for at least a crooked street

Not true at all. I'm not sure who invented it, maybe the Greeks. I suspect, however, that it has been with cities from the beginning.

[Sinapus]

Originally posted by Ethelred


Could be he didn't mention it because chabram armour is a Brittish invention. The Abrahms wouldn't have been built without it as tanks were fast becoming expensive targets for cheap anti tank weapons.

Also, the British have a tank that looks similar to the Abrams.
The Chieftain, IIRC.

(Probably due to the Chobahm armor or something along that line.)

Stealth bomber should be replaced by the B-52.... oh wait, that's another American aircraft. (Though one that is more useful.)

[nato]

Not true at all. I'm not sure who invented it, maybe the Greeks. I suspect, however, that it has been with cities from the beginning.

Well I tried to find the quote I mentioned, so I could back it up and see what the surrounding paragraphs said, but I can't find it. I have a big collection of books about cities and I honestly can't remember which one it was in.

Anyway, what I posted was not a lie ... the gridlock was associated with American cities ... at least to my knowledge.

In any event I was trying to offer some support to awesomedude's side of the argument with that ... my mistake ...

Sinapus - I didn't know the Chieften was very similar to the Abrams, my bad. I thought the modern armor graphic was definitely an M1, and so I thought it lent support to Sandman's original post. Like I said Ethelred had a good point about that.

Man I do a bad job arguing for the too Americanized side! Ok I'm rejoining my country again ... Civ3 is not too Americanized!

[Trevman]

This is obviously just an another European American-hate rant. I don't know why you guys across the sea hate us so much. Are we not liberal enough over here or what? Anyways, this game was bleeping developed in America and its main audience is Americans. If you have a problem with that, than just boycott America, we don't care.

[Sandman]

Also, the British have a tank that looks similar to the Abrams. The Chieftain, IIRC.

The Chieftain was the old battle tank. I think that you're thinking of the Challenger, the current model. And it does have 'Chobham' armour, apparently.

Anyway, what I posted was not a lie ... the gridlock was associated with American cities ... at least to my knowledge.

Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you of lying, it's a tiny issue anyway.

Wall Street should be named for the first one, wasnt that the London Exchange?

Holland springs to mind, but then again... New York was founded by the Dutch.

[Sandman]

This is obviously just an another European American-hate rant. I don't know why you guys across the sea hate us so much. Are we not liberal enough over here or what? Anyways, this game was bleeping developed in America and its main audience is Americans. If you have a problem with that, than just boycott America, we don't care.

Read the damn thread before passing such idiotic judgements.

[awesomedude]

Originally posted by Sandman
Sorry to hijack my own thread, but...



Not true at all. I'm not sure who invented it, maybe the Greeks. I suspect, however, that it has been with cities from the beginning.

I think that there's at least a little truth too it. The Greeks may have planned their cities, aswell as the Europeans, but I'd say it's far more distinctive in the US, at least from my own experience. I'm not saying that European cities aren't made up of rectangular shapes, because they are to a certain extent, but they come in different sizes, compared to how "a block" is almost an exact measurement over here .

I live in SanFran, and I have yet to see a curved street downtown. Not saying that there aren't any though... in my mind there's not only a difference between city layouts (comparing America to Europe), but the difference is pretty huge.

[Ethelred]

I live in SanFran, and I have yet to see a curved street downtown.

Where is Lombard St. then? Isn't it downtown or near it?

The Japanese tourists love that place. I only see the pictures they take so I don't know exactly where it is. I haven't been to SF since I was a kid.

For those of you that don't know Lomard St. is the curviest street on Earth. It gets used in movies for jokes.

Of course it USED to be a straight street.