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**Willem** · March 31, 2002, 13:35

Re: infuriating

Originally posted by Tucci528
In one game, I don't remember who I was playing but I had made one warrior and one settler, which was only two or three squares from my capital. The warrior ran into an American warrior. The Americans had five techs I did not. How is this possible?

America is an expansionist civ, it probably got those techs from goody huts. I always play American, and I'm usually about 5 techs ahead by the time I hit the Middle Ages, provided there's no other expansionist civ in the game. This is normal.

**Azrikam** · March 31, 2002, 13:57

America is an expansionist civ, it probably got those techs from goody huts. I always play American, and I'm usually about 5 techs ahead by the time I hit the Middle Ages, provided there's no other expansionist civ in the game. This is normal.

A Canadian forced to play as the Americans? Firaxis, look what you've done to us!

**Ninot** · March 31, 2002, 14:15

bah to playing as the americans... i modded the Iroquois to be Canadian (ok... so i made them copy cats of the americans, but its still good)

**Willem** · March 31, 2002, 14:25

Originally posted by Azrikam

A Canadian forced to play as the Americans? Firaxis, look what you've done to us!

Yeah well, I like having really large empires and it's easier for me to come up with new city names playing American than anything else. I've thought about creating a Canadian civ, but it seems like it would be more trouble than it's worth. Besides, I don't know if we have that many cities I could use for names. I'd be forced to have a much smaller civ!

**Alex** · March 31, 2002, 15:39

Well, I certainly understand your fury... At least I can help with some of your doubts.

One of the preferences, which has been checked for quite awhile, says "culturally-linked starting locations". The readme for the patch said something confusing about this, I don't remember what. Can anyone tell me what this preference is, and how to have culturally linked starting locations on the earth map?

With that preference toggled on, civs that belong to the same cultural groupings will start next to each other. For example, if you play with Greece, then the Romans will start next to you, or if you play with America then the Iroquois will be your neighbours.

I seem to remember seeing somewhere in the manual a method of upgrading all units of a specific type. Was I hallucinating?

No, you were not.

In order to upgrade all units of a specific type (provided you have any necessary resource and enough money blah blah blah), you select the unit and then press Shift+U.

As for your other complaints, yes, this game is not properly finished yet. Don't worry, the XP is coming...

**Raion** · March 31, 2002, 15:44

Ah, yes the game plays different. Game bugging ya?

Perfect, probably not, but there are ways around it.

**Ethelred** · March 31, 2002, 15:45

The game is harder than Civ II. You may be making things harder though if you still thinking in Civ II terms.

The manual is extensive but it would have to be three or even ten times the size to cover everything. Still it has problems and the was before the patches changed things. So read the readme and the same for the patch readme.

There is a link for a bunch of strategy threads on the main Civ III page. The threads by Velocyrix will help a lot even though they are from prior to the 1.17 patch.

I can't help with Mac specific stuff. It uses a lot of CPU time in the background on the PC though even with XP. It shouldn't really, as it isn't doing anything when its not in the front.

Now for some specific aid.

The ability to move multiple units at once in the latest patch seemed like a great option--doesn't seem to work. The stack treats my orders like suggestions, and heads in the exact opposite direction.

Might be a Mac problem. On the PC you hit the J key and you get at pointer you use to click on a specific tile. The path the units will travel is shown. Only units of the same type will move and ALL units of that type will move even if they are fortified or in a ship or an Army. However again that is on the PC. Your Mac is going to vary and it will also vary with the OS you are using I would suspect.

I have yet to find any use for any bombardment unit before artillery. My catapaults never succeed.

Well cannons are sorta usefull. Catapolts aren't worth much. I keep them if I capture them thats about it. Artillery can be very usefull and sometimes even cannon. Good for shooting at ships that try shore bombarment.

Can anybody give me any clues as to the AI's rationale in all this?

A clue maybe. The AI is a bit irrational at times.

Most likely what initially occured is that you where weak but the Americans were weaker. So the Egyptians decided on them for a target. Or maybe you paid them off and the Americans didn't. Thats a good way to avoid war.

The AI won't respect your borders if you aren't more powerfull. They sometimes also are so desperate to expand they will send stuff through you even when you can whip them. The best way you could have handled that would to have blocked their path. For some reason that doesn't seem to bother them much if any. Telling them to get out is a good way to start a war. They will only do so if they are weaker than you and know it.

They WILL leave though if you are strong enough most of the time.

So mostly you needed more troops in that game. If the AI starts acting like you are some sort of pushover you had best start building units. If you can't then you had better be real friendly and then hope a lot.

In addition to not being able to stay ahead in tech, money seems to be a horrible issue. I have to go straight to Economics so I can build Wall Street as soon as I can in order to gain any significant income.

That is a good idea for money but not otherwise. For one thing the most you will get is 50gold per turn and that requires that you have 1000 in your treasury. Don't bother beelining for it.

A beeline for Military Tradition is far more usefull. The AI doesn't so it can give quite an edge for a bit of time.

Your real problem is that you are doing the things you need for money. You have the production edge over the AI on warlord. So you should beat them when you learn more.

Start fast. The AI does so you must.

Build a couple warriors maybe three at most. Send them out to pop goody huts. The Americans had a big tech lead that way and from trading with other civs that they met with their scouts. You must use warriors if you don't have faster units.

Once you have a couple of warriors out scouting begin to build a settler. Your worker should have developed a mine or two and a road. I mine the tile with bonus shields early but don't spend a lot of time on it early. You will only be using two or three tiles so developing more is a waste. As soon as the worker is done send it on to the next city site building road as it goes.

You will need to produce settlers for a while out of that starting city. On a standard map one city will do for that. Larger maps may need another city to help. Cities should specialize a bit at the beginning. Have one build a barracks and build all the units you need early.

Roads are your friend. They add one coin to each worked tile. Luxuries help too. Rivers produce one coin for each adjacent tile worked so placing cities to optimize river use is a good idea.

You may want to start games with the intent to pracitice the very early game. By testing things in several games you will begin to get a better idea of how to balance you choices.

Build marketplaces of course.

You are trying to hard to get a tech lead on your own. Trade with the AI. Save your money instead of spending it. Spend a little on warlord and less on higher levels. The higher the level the more easier it is becomes for the AI. The AI likes it if you trade with them. If you avoid trade they get hostile.

On high levels most players spend little or nothing on research. They buy the tech with the cash they save. You can increase your cash early buy searching and destroying barbarian encampments. Roaming or Raging barbarians will enhance this but it does increase the odds of raging hordes trampling through your outer cities.

Get out of despotism as soon as possible but that may not be till you have cathedrals. Monarchy is good before then though as you can use military police. I recommend going for Monarchy IF and ONLY if you have religous civ. The rest of the time I go for Republic and when I can I switch and stay there the rest of the game.

I can't build any Wonders.

On warlord you should be able to get some. Even the Pyramids. You must not be starting fast enough. However the Pyramids really can be done without. Very nice on large continents but not a must have. The key is indeed to optimize the tile with your workers. Still the AI wants the Pyramids more than anything else so you may not get it even on warlord. Don't worry about it. Worry about the Sistine Chappel. Some like the Great Library but if you trade enough you don't need it.

The only time you should max out your research early is when you are isolated on an island. Then you MUST beline for Map Making and do whatever you can to produce the Great Lighthouse. That may be the only way your can find the other civs without a lot of lost galleys.

You aren't seeing anything about

the other civs building wonders because you have any embassies. You will only be able to to do that with civs you know. There is no one turn warning in Civ III. I don't know why and I don't see it as a problem really. I usually have much better production and if I start first or even soon after another civ I have always got the Wonder even on high levels. Not that I get a lot of wonders on high levels. Last time I got most of them was on Regent.

The huge earth map that came with the game is silly

Thats a bit generous. The best world map is Marla's but is exceedingly huge. Even monster machines have long turn times.

The starting positions aren't so much stupid as they are random. In fact that is exactly what they are. At present there is no official way to set starting positions and the fan designed save game editors are for PC's. So I don't see how you can controll the starting positions for now. Later patches should fix that or maybe a Mac owner will convert one of the fan editors.

You should be able to use fan designed maps and mods though. I am not sure though about the graphics changes. Depends on how the conversion to the Mac handled the file formats.

One of the preferences, which has been checked for quite awhile, says "culturally-linked starting locations".

What that does is couple your civ with other civs that or may not have historical and cultural relations. For instance France will usually wind up with England, Russia and Germany as its neighbors even if you have the civs all set to random. I turned that off myself. I mentioned France because I played it a lot on Monarch and got real tired of having to deal with the Wicked Witches extorting me all the time. I wanted to be a lumberja--- never mind. I decided I would like to play France and see some fresh synthetic faces.

Speaking of extortion. Pay them off. Unless you are sure you can win and the Military Advisor says you have at least an average military in relation to the extortionist pay them. Don't let it bug you. Its supposed to. They aren't real and they don't really think your a wimp if you pay. Well unless you pay when they bluff. That may make you look like an easy mark but I am not sure on that.

Yes the advisors are not very usefull but that one item does help let you know how you stand militarily. He will also give you information about barbarians. Heed the warnings about them building up.

The Science Advisor ALWAYS says you should spend more. He did that in Civ II remember. Its a joke. Advisors always want more for their area. The Domestic Irritant is so annoying to so many she may be throttled back and even given a toggle to shut her up in a future patch. Please help us in our hour of need oh might Firaxis. SHUT HER UP.

Don't forget to check the trade advisor. She is stupid but the screen is usefull. The Foreign Advisor seems to have some sort of sever brain damage. But he will let you know about some things of use. When he makes the strange remark 'You know Togagawa has betrayed our friends the French' and you were the one that wiped out the French it does actually tell you something. That Togagawa broke an aggreament and the he may do so with you as well. Togagawa is particularly treachereous.

On the subject of upgrading units, the cost of this is prohibitive. Money is already tight and I just can't build and maintain barracks.

Well it can be expensive but your real problem is you haven't figured out how to make money yet. Trade with the AI. Sell them tech if you have it an they don't. Its fun to sell Electronics just before you finish the Hoover Damn for full price to one civ and then a bit less to the others. That stunt may need for you to built the Theory of Evolution Wonder. That is the point a lot of people get the tech lead and keep it. I tend to get it a bit earlier, sometimes anyway. On Warlord you should get the lead in the Middle ages.

Other civs are irrigating from seawater.

More likely you just think they are. If they are really doing that its a bug in the Mac version. They don't need a water source after Electicity. Neither do you.

Inland water without sea or ocean tiles is always fresh. Most likely they were using that if they don't have electricity.

I don't understand the Army problem. They don't really show anymore except in combat. They should show as a unit on tile for instance.

Veteran Cavalary in Army.

You make the army and then you load units into it like you would a ship. Only they don't come out again.

The level you are on isn't that hard. If you have played several games I wouldn't bother going down to chieftan. That level is so easy you will develop bad habits if you spend to long on it.

I do recommend that you start a few games with the intent of not playing them out. Just to develop your starting techniques. If you do well in a game at the start though by all means keep going.

Good luck.

**Ethelred** · March 31, 2002, 15:53

Originally posted by Willem
it's easier for me to come up with new city names playing American than anything else.

This is because we Americans have infiltrated your education system. You are forced into mindlessly learning the Capitals of each state while the Americans are learning massive ignorance about all things Canadian.

Yellow knife
Calgary
Quebec
Montreal
Kitcheneer
Toronto
Van Coover

Sorry I am running out. I am merely an ignorant American after all.

**Willem** · March 31, 2002, 19:21

Re: infuriating

Originally posted by Tucci528
The ability to move multiple units at once in the latest patch seemed like a great option--doesn't seem to work. The stack treats my orders like suggestions, and heads in the exact opposite direction.

One possibility for this is a bug with the "J" command regarding Armies. If there's one in a stack that has the same type of unit you're trying to move, they will empty out of the Army, but later they will move as if they were still inside. This has caused a few headaches for players.

I have yet to find any use for any bombardment unit before artillery. My catapaults never succeed.

Catapults or Cannon aren't much use against cities, you're better off using them against units out in the open. This is fairly accurate historically however, and not a flaw in the game. Catapults were extremely inefficient, especially considering the fact that the soldiers operating them didn't have the mathematical skills in order to plan a proper trajectory. They generally just fired the things in the right direction, and hoped that they actuallly hit something. Early cannons weren't much better in that regard.

Every turn, I told him to leave, figuring that the AI would pick up on the fact I wasn't gonna let him through without an agreement, and he would be paying for it, not me. He declared war on me on the next round, signed a peace treaty with the Americans and then, the round after that, a mutual protection pact. They both attacked me and my units were totally ineffective at defense. I had some luck with offense, and took some strategic Egyptian cities but they would listen to my messengers, same thing with the Americans. Can anybody give me any clues as to the AI's rationale in all this?

If you were the leader of a nation with some much weaker nation telling you what to do, would you pay attention? If you want them to take you seriously, keep tabs in your Milititary Advisor screen, and build up your forces until they're stronger than your neighbours. They won't bother you as much after that.

In addition to not being able to stay ahead in tech, money seems to be a horrible issue. I have to go straight to Economics so I can build Wall Street as soon as I can in order to gain any significant income. Supporting units and improvements is debilitating under any government form (haven't tried Communism).

Don't make the mistake of setting your research at a certain level then forgetting about it, the way you did in Civ I & II. There's a maximum and minimum amount of turns for gaining a tech, and pushing your science bar right to the hilt won't always help shorten that time. Quite often I can turn down my science spending to 10 or 20%, and not have that affect the number of turns required for the tech at all. But in the meantime, I can add possibly 200 gold per turn, or more, to my treasury.

I can't build any Wonders. Even if I start building the Pyramids as soon as possible, and have a worker optimize shields for that city, somebody else almost always gets it. With no warning (and no way to buy a Wonder anyway), this is one of the most obnoxious changes from Civ2. I know it's more realistic, but this is one example where realism is getting in the way of gameplay (IMO).

The early wonders are rigged so that certain civs stand a much better chance of building them than others. For instance, Americans can start to build the Pyramids right away, since they begin the game with Masonry. If you don't have that same lead, chances are you won't be able to beat them to it. You have to learn which ones are remotely possible with your particular civ, and focus on those instead.

The huge earth map that came with the game is silly--no New Zealand, Greenland's terrain is completely innacurate, Indochina about three times too long for the scale, etc. Plus at least two player starting positions are stupid: Scandinavia and Siberia. I had horrible luck with Australia, but I've seen the AI do fairly well at it, but whichever Civs start in Scandinavia or Siberia are screwed, invariably.

I never play an Earth map so I can't really comment. But there's a couple of good ones kicking around you might find more accepable. Marla's mod is supposed to be good, and I've seen one done by Kitten of Chaos, that was very well done. Looking at the overall screen shot was like looking at a picture in an atlas.

Can I use any of the maps and scenarios on this and other sites with my Mac?

There's not that many Mac users around here so I suspect you'll have to find that out for yourself. I'm guessing there won't be a problem though.

The patch readme also said something about Civ3 taking up less CPU time when it's in the background. Does this not apply to Macs? I can't put it in the background, and Itunes and my file-sharing program will not run at the same time as Civ3.

Again, I think you're pretty much on your own on that score.

The manual is simply a joke. Not much more I can say about this. I tried to find out how to upgrade units, the words "upgrade" and "unit" are both missing from the index. Surely this game manual is a joke, and I'm going to recieve the real one in the mail, right?

Yes, they definitely could have made some improvements in the documentation. Even the Civilopedia is riddled with errors. A good example, they added the "J" command in the last patch, but they didn't bother to add it to the hotkey list in the 'Pedia. Go figure.

I hate the whole AI tech trading thing. They demand huge amounts from me, when they allow anything at all, but seem to give it away to other civs.

It's the same sort of thing as the military "harrassment". If you're more powerful than they are, they'll be more inclined to be fair with you. Also, some of the civs have been programmed to be harder to deal with than others. I know Cleo's a real tight wad in trading, she amost always drives a hard bargain.

Other civs are irrigating from seawater.

That's something I have yet to see.

I've only gotten one leader thus far, and I followed the instructions in the manual to make an army. I moved him, and three other units to a city with whatever requirement the manual said it had to have (I forget) and did the whole shebang. Two of the units vanished, and the army had one unit in it. Since the units were mixed, I don't know which one survived, but he was killed instantly and I couldn't figure out how to take units out, or add any more.

Did you by chance use the "J" command afterwards? There's a known bug that will empty an Army of it's units if you're trying to move similar units that aren't part of it. The ones in the Army will follow along, and create some problems in the game. As for taking units out, aside from the bug there is no way. Once they're inside they're there to stay, until the Army is destroyed or disbanded. As for adding units, just get them on the same square and press "L". Provided it's not full.

Thanx for your help, anybody that will respond. I'm not sure if this game is worth any more of my time. Can somebody tell me if these problems are my ineptitude, the AI cheating, bugs in the system, too hard difficulty levels or what?

Sounds to me like you still have a bit of a learning curve to go through, that's all. Forget Civ I and II, in many ways this is a whole new game. It took me awhile at first to "unlearn" what I had known before.

**Ninot** · March 31, 2002, 20:45

Originally posted by Ethelred

This is because we Americans have infiltrated your education system. You are forced into mindlessly learning the Capitals of each state while the Americans are learning massive ignorance about all things Canadian.

Yellow knife
Calgary
Quebec
Montreal
Kitcheneer
Toronto
Van Coover

Sorry I am running out. I am merely an ignorant American after all.

Well, in the Quebec system, Quebec geography comes first, Canadian second, and American geography is non-existant.

And, well, in creating the Canada civ, all i basically did was download the Trudeau leader head, use the cities provided in the readme... and when i get to the end of the list, i have a wall sized map of Canada right across from my computer, so i just look at it and choose a city name from that. Also... i think Kitcheneer is spelt with one e at the end... but strangely enough, it isnt on my map...

So cheers to Assiniboia Saskatchewan, city of the day.

sorry for the thread jacking
(EDIT) oh, by the way, Van Coover is spelt Vancouver, one word... not a Jean Claude Van Damn type name. Yellowknife is also one word...Also... i think Kitcheneer is spelt with one e at the end... but strangely enough, it isnt on my map...

**Ethelred** · March 31, 2002, 21:08

) oh, by the way, Van Coover is spelt Vancouver, one word... not a Jean Claude Van Damn type name. Yellowknife is also one word...Also... i think Kitcheneer is spelt with one e at the end... but strangely enough, it isnt on my map...

I knew Vancouver was wrong but couldn't figure what it was.

Yellowknife is where Margo Kidder was born.

There was guy publishing a Diplomacy 'zine in the 70's in Kitchener.

Harry Drews. He once had a fake version of his 'zine returned when it couldn't be delivered to the right person. The return address was faked too.

Harried Roos Kitchener Zoo

And it go to him at his rural address. Of course since it was fake he wasn't the actual sender.

**Carch** · March 31, 2002, 21:27

One thing I've found that helps ...

In addition to the mention of going with an expansionist civ and hitting up the goody huts, one thing I've found that I was doing "wrong" was trying to play isolationist.

That just does not work in Civ III. At all.

You *have* to trade (techs, maps, luxuries), or you won't keep up. The AI civs are trading like mofos behind your back; you have to do it too.

_/\ C

**Carch** · March 31, 2002, 21:43

Couple other points ...

After re-reading your message ..

Originally posted by Tucci528
...

The reason I quit my last game in rage is because my good friends for centuries, the Egyptians had declared war [...]

You *have* to be a tough negotiator. Never, ever accept the first offering from the AI. Change the terms and negotiate for something else. A lot of times, you'll get lots of money from them for something that seems worthless to you. Kicking the AI out of your territory repeatedly does only one thing: piss them off. Either work out a reasonable right of passage agreement (and use your side of it, too!) or get your defenses in order.

In addition to not being able to stay ahead in tech, money seems to be a horrible issue...

Read up on some strategy tips for making and keeping money. It's not all that grim as you make it out to be--you just need to ensure that you're doing everyhting possible to increase those gold-generating squares (and get as much trade going as you can).

I can't build any Wonders...

This is one of my beefs, too. Even when I maximize my production, and start wonders before other civs, I get beat way too often. I guess what I really need is to pick some fights early and make some leaders, but that's really not my style.

The huge earth map that came with the game is silly

Yep. Using a real earth map in Civ is silly. It doesn't work, it's too crowded, and it doesn't reflect how civilizations actually developed

Does anybody else find the whole advisor concept real close to useless? Do they ever give real advice? Does the tech advisor ever not ask for more funding? Obviously not, he says that when the funding is at 100%.

I'm guessing he's looking for more raw research, not the percentage. If you're hurting in the money department, and you're unable to keep up in tech, you should probably look at ways to better maximize your cash flow.

Other civs are irrigating from seawater.

Haven't seen this, and it'd sure piss me off if I did.

Can somebody tell me if these problems are my ineptitude, the AI cheating, bugs in the system, too hard difficulty levels or what?

Yes (but don't be so hard on yourself

, sorta, and maybe.

One thing that's bugged me about many of the complaint threads is the phrase "AI Cheating". There's no such thing. It's an ARTIFICIAL intelligence. It does not play by the rules--no computer game I know of does. It pretends to play by the rules but also tries to be challenging enough for you. As far as the difficulty goes, personally I welcome the challenge. You need to break free of some of your old Civ habits, learn the nuances of this particular version, and things should get easier for you.

_/\ C

**Coracle** · March 31, 2002, 21:52

Originally posted by Ethelred

This is because we Americans have infiltrated your education system. You are forced into mindlessly learning the Capitals of each state while the Americans are learning massive ignorance about all things Canadian.

Yellow knife
Calgary
Quebec
Montreal
Kitcheneer
Toronto
Van Coover

Sorry I am running out. I am merely an ignorant American after all.

Such is the result of America's liberal public education system!

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