Naval history and civ3 thread for NYE and korn and whoever

[notyoueither]

OK korn. The gauntlet has been dropped by one of us and the other seems to be fool enough to pick it up. I'm not sure which is which since this topic has been simmering for a while. However, we should really stop spamming other threads, so here's one for you, me and whoever else cares.

I'm a little under the weather today so I will give you the first say. Or, if you wish to wait, I will respond to your last post in Zylka's thread when I have the enregy. Take it easy on me, I'm an old man.

Anybody else interested? Here's the place. Let's just keep the minutia of historical details out of other people's threads. I get the impression a lot of people are tiring of it.

[SpencerH]

Let's just keep the minutia of historical details out of other people's threads. I get the impression a lot of people are tiring of it.

Yes, its much easier for them to discuss something they know nothing about if they're not constantly interupted by people who bother to read or who have done what they're discussing (so poorly).

[notyoueither]

Do we have a problem SpencerH?

[Edit]I guess your missive can be read 2 ways. Especially after I reread it.[/Edit]

[SpencerH]

Not at all! I was refering to those who find it oppressive to discuss anything beyond whether the CIV colours match their outfits (without being too direct).

[bigvic]

Naval Strategy

So what about the naval strategy, guys? I've personally modded the hell out of my game in that area to more acuratly (I think) reflect historical realities and improve the game. Can we take it as a given that planes definately sunk ships in history? Yeah, thats a good starting point.

[SpencerH]

Planes definitely sink, and have sunk ships, including modern ships. No one expected the exocets to do so much damage to the British ships in the Falklands. That was nearly 20 years ago. Defense against such low flying missles is very difficult so my bet is that modern air launched anti-ship missles would do a huge amount of damage to everything except the mothballed American Battleships.

[bigvic]

Mothballed Battleships

Speaking of, in my mod, I've given battleships ability to tote missiles. Seems rational in light of the last usage of 'em in Gulf war. Aegis cruisers, too. Other things I've done...
*Upped galley's attack to 2, move to 6, gave them 1 bombard factor (primitve artillery/landing parties)
*Upped caravel's attk to 3, def to 3, gave 2 bombard, move of 9
*upped galleon to 4/4, 3 bombard, 8 move
*made all the above naval power as well as transport - I hate not having a real maritime power option til frigates
*upped frigates to, um, 6/4, 10 move, 4 bombard w/ rof of 2, can trans. 2 units, gave them trans capabiliy

I'll have to check the rest, if you want to know, later, as I'm running out of time here and must do something w/ my life other than sit at this soul sucking machine, but basically upped moves for more modern ships to 18 - 20 rangefor trans and aegis cruisers, 8 for ironclads, 11 for privateers (a favorite of mine!), 12 - 16 for bb's, cv's, subs & destroyers. Also increased combat & bombard factors. Basically, since I play on hugeworlds chock full o' civs, I get sick of slow *ss ships that take longer to reach destination than rr movement. Anyway, got to go.

[Inverse Icarus]

i left my rules alone for the most part (waiting for MP, me and friends set a "default rules set"), but i'd really like to see a revamp of naval combat.

i know, i know, everyone b1tches about something, and my thing is multiplayer. but i like to b1tch. naval combat should be expanded to such a degree that it should be extemely useful on a pangea map (i find myself focusing far less on naval superiority).

i saw a special on the History Channel about the Japanese in WW2, and how they developed submarine aircraft carriers. it was pretty frikken cool.

[korn469]

ok well since we are talking about what modifications we've made to civ3's naval and air units i'll start with the changes i've made to the blitz mod

Ancient Naval Units
Galley 0.1.2 10|1 (sink in sea, sink in ocean) {Caravel} NONE [Naval Transport]
War Galley 2.2.3 30 (sink in sea, sink in ocean) {Sloop} Map Making [Naval Power]

Middle Age Naval Units
Caravel 0.2.4 40|3 {Galleon} Astronomy [Naval Transport]
Sloop 3.3.4 4[4]1 40 {Frigate} Astronomy [Naval Power]
Frigate 6.4.5 8[4]1 60 {Ironclad} iron, saltpeter Magnetism [Naval Power]
Man-O-War 8.5.5 8[4]1 60 {Frigate} iron, saltpeter Magnetism [Naval Power]
Galleon 0.3.5 50|4 {Transport} Magnetism [Naval Transport]
Privateer 5.2.6 50 (hidden nationality, zoc) {Commerce Raider} iron, saltpeter Navigation [Naval Power]

Industrial Era Naval Units
Ironclad 10.9.6 10[5]1 80 {Destroyer} iron, coal Steel [Naval Power]
Transport 0.8.8 90|8 oil Mass Production [Naval Transport]
Destroyer 14.12.11 12[5]1 100 (can see submarines, zoc) {Aegis Cruiser} oil, iron Mass Production [Naval Power]
Battleship 30.20.10 16[6]2 200 oil, iron, coal Mass Production [Naval Power]
Carrier 0.18.10 200|5 (radar, doesn't carry bombers) oil, rubber Advanced Flight [Naval Carrier]
Submarine 16.6.10 100 (can see submarines, zoc) oil Mass Production [Naval Power]
Commerce Raider 15.10.11 (hidden nationality, zoc) oil, iron Mass Production [Naval Power]

Modern Naval Units
Aegis Cruiser 16.24.11 12[5]1 160|3 (can see submarines, radar, can carry cruise missiles) aluminum, uranium [Naval Missile Transport]
Nuclear Submarine 10.14.9 150|3 (can see submarines, can carry cruise missiles and tactical nukes) aluminum, uranium [Naval Missile Transport]

Industrial Era Air Units
Fighter 5.5.2 12[4]6 100 (blitz,) {F-15} oil, rubber [Air Defense]
Bomber 0.2.2 10[8]8 120 (blitz) oil, rubber [Air Bombard]
Helicopter 0.2.3 0[0]6 100 (can see submarines/invisable units) oil, rubber [Air Transport]

Modern Air Units
Jet Fighter 15.15.3 15[5]8 150 (blitz, radar) oil, aluminum [Air Defense]
F-15 18.18.3 15[5]8 150 (blitz, radar, precision strike) {Jet Fighter} oil, aluminum [Air Defense]
Supersonic Bomber 0.8.3 14[8]8 180 (blitz, radar, precision strike) [Air Bombard]
Stealth Fighter 0.6.3 18[4]8 150 (blitz, radar, stealth, precision strike) oil, aluminum, uranium [Air Bombard]
Stealth Bomber 0.3.3 20[8]8 300 (blitz, radar, stealth, precision strike) oil, aluminum, uranium [Air Bombard]

i also changed the chance to successfully intercept an air mission to 90%, chance to intercept a stealth mission to 9%, and i increased hitpoints to the following levels

conscript 4
regular 6
veteran 9
elite 12

so now being at 1 hp is much worse than it is in normal civ3

that is what i think it would take to balance air and naval units
____________________________

civ3 historical interpretations

*ships are a number of units
*a battle on the map can correspond to a number of real life battles
*with relative parity in technology and trainings, entire fleets don't get sunk by airpower
*battleships when they have damage control and AA stations manned are usually hard to sink with ww2 era attack planes
*there is not enough difference between naval and land attack planes to need two classes
*submarines are highly underrated both in civ3 and historically
*a.d.m ratings represent both equipment and tactics

so lets pick a topic to argue over

[bigvic]

Free yourself

[QUOTE] Originally posted by UberKruX
i left my rules alone for the most part (waiting for MP, me and friends set a "default rules set"), but i'd really like to see a revamp of naval combat.

Oh come on, man, live dangerously! That editor may blow for setting up historic scenarios, but if your not messing around w/ it your really missing out on some fun. Besides, it helps w/ historic accuracy. anyway, thats for another thread.

Yeah, I saw that show about the Jap carrier/subs. Really cool.

What I like about my mod most, is that it gives the option for naval pwer before the frigate, and if you click the box that designates early naval units get used for "power", the AI does a good job of using them as such. I mean, w/o modding it, there's no possibility of Spanish Armada battles, though lepanto style fights are still viable.

[bigvic]

Show me the way

Korn, we're getting almost off topic, but could you point me to a thread that shows me how to do this? I mean, are you using agraphics editor? How do you actally create new units instead of mod existing ones? Teach me, sensei.

[korn469]

bigvic

goto the files section and find the huge thread for gramphos's copy tool, and you can then copy units and buildings, which you can then edit, you can give them new graphics but i haven't did this yet, though i invite you and nye to try out the blitz mod...

if you have any problems though feel free to pm me and i'll try to help

[bigvic]

Thanks

Korn
Kool! Will try. Got some time coming up next week, & though I've promised myself to get away from my computer, I'm probably not being entirely honest w/ myself.

[The Rook]

My opinion is, ships should upgrade only in special circumstances. Frigates could upgrade to Ironclads. Battleships were converted to Aircraft carriers, but that's about it. You can't turn a gally into a caravel into a galleon into a transport.

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by korn469
*ships are a number of units

All caps coming up. I'm not trying to yell at you.... just yelling in general.

HOW MANY SHIPS IN A CIV3 NAVAL UNIT?

Are you thinking a "task force", a fleet, a big fleet, a little fleet, four, 500, what?

I'm getting tired of people assuming that a unit is multiple ships, but not specifying how many. It matters.

*submarines are highly underrated both in civ3 and historically

How often did subs sink warships? IIRC, it was pretty rare compared to merchant/cargo ships. While subs were VERY effective at sinking merchant craft, they were too slow and vulnerable to be of any real use against warships, esp. "on the high seas".

Subs aren't all that good in Civ3.... and I think that's OK, because Civ3 doesn't have the merchant shipping that subs are best at fighting.

Also, the German subs in WWII were extra effective due to the poor Allied response to them through a significant part of the war. For awhile Allied merchants didn't convoy, and for quite awhile there were few-to-no long range aircraft made available for sub spotting/hunting. Yeah, I know, when the Allies did have an intelligence, air, and/or radar advantage the U-boats were dead meat. I'm talking about the streatches of the war where the sub-hunters didn't have those advantages.

The Americans in the pacific had torpedo problems, and, IIRC, sinking Japaneese merchant shipping _never_ became the SSs primary goal - most of those merchant sinkings were performed after the sub. had given up on scoring on a BB or CV that mission.... anyway, in spite of all that, the American's might have been "extra effective" too, like the Germans. The IJN didn't think much of escort officers (like they didn't think much of captial ship damage control officers), so the quality of anti-sub escorts was often pretty rotten.

My point: To make subs as effective as they were in WWII the game might have to assume that the anti-sub forces are as poorly managed as they often were in WWII. And note, it wasn't really because the subs were new and novel threats that the Allies and the Japaneese had so much trouble with them. The Allies were loathe to release bombers to anti-sub work because so many of the high command were convinced that in using those bombers against German cities (Dresden, et al) they could knock Germany out of the war. Not convoying, and not following blackout procedures on the US east coast, was just plain stupid. The Japanesse, with thier poor attitude toward the less-glamours positions, had their own stupidities. Do we, in Civ3, really want to assume that the anti-sub forces in the game are just as clueless? I think that the "natural" effectiveness of submarines (ie - their effectiveness when the other side isn't being an idiot) is considerably less than WWII peaks of effectiveness.

I do think that WWI and II subs should be murder vrs. merchant-type units, and that modern subs are quite nasty.... but I'd be very leary of giving the pre-nuclear subs in Civ3 a boost - unless some sort of "merchant shipping" is added to the game. The subs should be usefull against it.

OTOH - I think a "highly effective subs are much more fun" argument trumps any realism issues. But lets be clear that the highly effective subs are there because they're fun, not because realism demands it.