Why do catapults suck so bad?

[Spec]

They suck that much cuz the're made of wood and ropes....

[korn469]

Bombardment bug

ok for my mod i made air units more powerful but them still seemed to fail too many times when they attacked, so i decided to test and see if it was true

there was a size 1 city with 2 infantry units and no buildings, so i made the following changes

i increased the bombardment strength of my unit to 1000 (editor max) and changed the RoF to 1, i then lowered the defense of the units to 1 and increased their hitpoints to 20 each (editor max), i then gave my air unit 100 movement and tested

in all i had 67 bombardment failed messages from those 100 attacks

so what appears to be happening is that a random number is rolled before the attack to determine if the bombardment attacks buildings, population, or units; however since size 1 cities can't die, a size 1 city with no building means that 2 out of three attacks will fail against units in that city, if so this is a bug and firaxis needs to fix it

[Whoha]

that would explain a great deal korn, think you just answered his question.

[BillChin]

Originally posted by Pius Popprasch
How often do they miss(fail)? From my experience it's 50%.

They suck because they are underpowered. They should cause real damage. I'm aware that real Catapults were little effective, too, but Civ is a game and we want some fun.
Not building Catapults is an option, though.

Against a spearman fortified in a small city, I estimate 20% hits. Against an archer on grassland in the open, it is more like 60% hits. Against, a hoplite in a hill city, it is like 5% hits.

I do wish there was an option or a wonder or something to produce heavy catapults, heavy cannon, heavy artillery. Maybe cost 30% more and have 25% higher attack rating, or have a wonder or a building that enables their production. Just as barracks enable production of veteran units, a special building (ballistics range?) enable production of heavy bombard units.

[Ghengis Brom]

Catapults are a weak unit and I don't recommend them for offense. Where they truly shine is as a city defensive unit in conjunction with another defender type. They soften up just about any ancient attacker which can sometimes mean the difference between keeping and losing a city. I have also found that a defender like a Hoplite and a catapult fortified in a fortification scares the bejeesus outa of the AI, at least in ancient times.

[Willem]

Yes, Catapults are a weak unit, but that's how they were historically. They were grossly inaccurate and only used in very limited situations, namely a seige. But they are the first link in a chain that leads to Artillery and Radar Artillery, all with fairly inexpensive upgrades. So if you use them well, and especialy if you look after them, they can become much more valuable units later on, with little extra cost. It's not a bad policy to stockpile a bunch of them for later on in the game. Like I said earlier, it's quicker to upgrade Catapults to Cannon than it is to build a Cannon from scratch.

Though, and yes I'm repeating myself, it would be just great if there was a stack Bombard command. I find in order to have an effective bombard regiment, I need at least 10 of them, which makes it somewhat tedious when it comes to firing on a target. I think if we could issue a single order to a bunch of units to fire at a target, that more people would consider using them. As it is, with their inaccuracy, they can be a pain to use.

[simwiz2]

catapults are too weak to be of any great use. artillery is where bombard units get useful. there is nothing the AI can do to keep a city when theres 30 artillery and 15 infantry on a mountain next to the city

i used the infantry-artillery strat last game to decimate the egyptians. this was pre-tank, so they couldn't attack at all, 6 att vs 10 def can only be accomplished with alot of bombardment.

[Caligastia]

Thanks for all your help guys!

[Skanky Burns]

Catapults are useful when you have quite a few of them, but by the time you build that many, you could have just built many horsemen which do the same job and also have a chance of killing the enemy.

But being able to upgrade them is rather nifty.

[Caligastia]

It seems to me that military units in general are weaker than in Civ2, what do you guys think?

[SpencerH]

i increased the bombardment strength of my unit to 1000 (editor max) and changed the RoF to 1, i then lowered the defense of the units to 1 and increased their hitpoints to 20 each (editor max), i then gave my air unit 100 movement and tested

Can someone explain how RoF functions. I havent seen much of an effect.

At some point we'll have a trebuchet as an upgrade for (or in addition to) the catapult.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Rate of Fire just means how many pops with one bombard. RoF=2 can result in 2 hp being reduced from a unit, or two improvement ruined, or 2 citizens killed with one bombard.

I find catapults and cannon very useful on the attack. Someone mentioned using 10% of your attack force. I use them as half or more of my attack force. 8 cannon with a few riflemen and cavalry, for example. Many of the bombards miss, but often it's just a matter of a turn or two before they flatten the city - every defender down hps, half the improvements pulverized, some of the citizenry crushed. Easy easy cleanup for the real units after that.

Defeating AI armies is also made easy with bombarding. That 12 hp army advancing to your city can be cut in half with a swarm of rocks showering down on it. Throw a few bad guys at it, et voila! the AI wasted a leader.

Catapults are dirt cheap, and cost peanuts to upgrade. By the time you get artillery, you spend a pittance to upgrade a heap of 20 shield units to some real bad boys. They require an escort (I always use at least 2 units) and are slow - But they make conquest easy.

[Ghengis Brom]

Originally posted by Caligastia
It seems to me that military units in general are weaker than in Civ2, what do you guys think?

They're not necessarily weaker, combat is done in an entirely different way now. This has been the cause of much debate since the game was released. Notably the tank-killing swordsman.

I am above the law!

[Hurricane]

Agree with Marquis de Sodaq; Catapults are great.

First, they are cheap, and having no attack value does not require barracks to be built. This means you can build them in large number in some of your otherwise worthless cities.

Second, they never die (even if they get captured you can easily recapture them), so you don´t need to build that many. 5-10 should be enough for the Ancient era. Think about how many HP:s the average catapult will take out during its lifespan - much more than the average Horseman or Swordsman.

Third, good use of catapults mean minimal losses on your side, which means more promotions and that way more leaders.

All in all, don´t underestimate the use of catapults.

[SpencerH]

RoF

Sorry to keep on about this. So if a unit RoF is 2 it WILL remove 2hp in a successful attack or CAN remove 2 hp (ie sometimes 1 sometimes 2). Thanks