What Civ Would You Have Included?

[Lonestar]

You guys are pretty Passionate about this, aintcha?


Can't believe no one has mentioned the Anasazi or the Hopewell Culture as the North America Indians.

Even one of the "Civilized nations", come on Firaxis!

[Ethelred]

More like we don't have anything better to do.

I know I am trying to avoid my latest Civ III game as it has reached that critical ancient era junction when one civ has got to go. I have this suspicion it may be me.

The Anasazi didn't exist. That is the word isn't Anasazi as no one knows what they called themselves. I don't think they qualify for the game.

Think of the Iroquois as the representing ALL the North American Indians and the Aztecs as representing all the Central American cultures. Then the Anasazi are a better fit with Central America. They had a ball court anyway.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Lonestar
You guys are pretty Passionate about this, aintcha?


Can't believe no one has mentioned the Anasazi or the Hopewell Culture as the North America Indians.

Even one of the "Civilized nations", come on Firaxis!

They have been mentioned in other threads, but usually not as contenders for the top 16 spots. IMHO the Anasazi (with their descendents the Pueblo tribes and the Navaho) would be a decent choice to include in the next 16, but I think the Hopewell Culture is too marginal. They were there, and prospered for a while, but except for their earthworks they didn't have much influence on the path of human civilization.

[Ethelred]

The Navajo are most closely related to the Apache and then the Pacific Northwest Amerinds but not the Hopi. Linguistic studies show that the Navajo were from a later migration than most of the Amerinds. That study was quite a while ago though. I don't know if genetic studies have confirmed it.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Ethelred
More like we don't have anything better to do.

I know I am trying to avoid my latest Civ III game as it has reached that critical ancient era junction when one civ has got to go. I have this suspicion it may be me.

The Anasazi didn't exist. That is the word isn't Anasazi as no one knows what they called themselves. I don't think they qualify for the game.

Anasazi is Navaho for Ancient Ones or Ancient Enemy. Other descendents (the Navaho have Athabascan and Anasazi blood) have similar names. They developed only the beginnings of a script (petroglyphs carved into rock), so we don't even know if they had a name for themselves as one people.

Perhaps they could be called the Kivans - after all, the Iroquois call themselves the People of the Longhouse.
The different tribes certainly had names though. The Hopi, Zuni, Kiowa, Tewa, Tano and others are still around today.

Think of the Iroquois as the representing ALL the North American Indians and the Aztecs as representing all the Central American cultures.

That doesn't make sense. Just look at the city names, they are purely Iroquois and Aztec, so the option to add more Amerind civs is open.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Ethelred
The Navajo are most closely related to the Apache and then the Pacific Northwest Amerinds but not the Hopi. Linguistic studies show that the Navajo were from a later migration than most of the Amerinds. That study was quite a while ago though. I don't know if genetic studies have confirmed it.

The Navaho themselves claim to have Anasazi blood. They were an Athabascan tribe that came from the north and mixed with the Anasazi, partly adopting their culture, too.

To be more exact: the Navaho and Apache came south together as one Athabascan branch, and only grew into different nations after they settled in different places in the southwest.

When the Navaho numbers rose, they warred with ao the Hopi for territory.

There have been no DNA studies so far to prove or disprove any of this, but it sounds not unlikely, and Amerind oral history in other cases has been proven accurate.

[Ethelred]

That doesn't make sense. Just look at the city names, they are purely Iroquois and Aztec, so the option to add more Amerind civs is open.

I was talking about what Firaxis said. They chose the Iriquois to represent the North American Amerinds. They not only said so they chose a plains indian UU which is pretty good confirmation.

Teotihuacan isn't Aztec. That city was at its peak before the Aztecs existed. Tlaxcala was the city of Cortez's allies. Tlacopan was an ally of the Aztecs but that is not the same as being Aztec.

Tzintzuntzen thats another bunch of Aztec enemies.

Tula was Toltec.

So no they aren't all Aztec. I am not going to check on the Iroquois because I don't realy care about them.

As for the Navajo I suppose its possible they mixed a bit with the Anasazi. However they probably mixed with the more directly descended Hopi as well. People that fight each other tend to do things like that when they aren't fighting.

There is room for a lot things. We could have Formians and Elves if someone wanted to figure out just what the heck Formians were.

So the guys at Firaxis aren't even remotely expert about Pre-Columbian America. So you can make a Pre-Columbian mod. With Aztecs, Mayans, Toltec, Olmecs and if you are feeling a bit silly you can throw in some Jews to placate the folks in Utah.

Humming Bird on the Left would be a good leader.

Now that I think about it how about the Formians, Elves, Tua De Danaan, Arthur and Prester John. At least no one could complain about its lack of realism. Well I suppose someone could but it would be sillier than the mod itself.

[Ribannah]

Many cities in Meso-America belonged to more than one civ. The Aztec empire was around for only a short while, they lived on older realms and subjugated neighbours.
They had no time to build a lot of new cities but as far as I can tell they did control the cities on their list, or at least it was the intention of Firaxis to make the list so. And yes, the Spanish found enemies of the Aztecs within the empire.

The Iroquois (not: Iriquois) UU in the game is indeed not correct. Firaxis wanted another mounted UU so at the last minute they added this fable of the Iroquois representing all the northern Amerinds, even threw in a few Great Leaders from other tribes, but the history they give and the cities are entirely Iroquois although some important ones (such as Teyagon and Ganaraske) are blatantly missing, Akwesasne and St. Regis are the same town and Salamanca as a capital is dubious.

A correct Iroquois UU would be a Musketman that uses all squares as road.

The Formians are a race of humanoid-insects native to Arcadia.

Skennen!

[Ethelred]

The Formians are a race of humanoid-insects native to Arcadia.

That won't fit with Irish myth.

Dang. Google only comes up with one site for the Formians and it hardly mentions them. Lots of sites about races in games with the name but just this one for the myth.

http://www.msu.edu/~enterlin/Celts/druid.html

Usually I can find lots of stuff on Celtic myths.

HAH Google had this one for Irish Myth but missed the Formians.

http://indigo.ie/~legends/dates.html

69 BC

The Partholonians fought the Fomorians, sea pirates probably from Scandinavia.

1869 BC

The Tuatha Dé Danaan fought and defeated the Fomorians near Lough Arrow, Co. Sligo, in the Second Battle of Moytura. Nuada was killed, and Lugh Lámhfada became king. (The Fall of Troy also occurred about this time, according to the Lebor Gabála.)


I thought the Tuatha De Denaan would be involved in that.

That was part of this site

http://www.luminarium.org/mythology/ireland/

Found what I was looking for. Would have been easier if remembered Jim Fitzpatrick's name.

http://www.jimfitzpatrick.ie/mythology/balor.html

My brother has a copy of the Book of Conquests. Great artwork.

Balor was the leader of the Formians. Unfortunatly the picture there is not of Balor.

I found lots of stuff on Celtic Formians when I gave up on searching for them and entered Tuath De Danaan into the search bar.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sandman
I know of no Celtic culture around today. & ...Well, maybe. But keep in mind that the Celtic languages are kept alive with social engineering.

What a truly bizarre statement. No songs in Celtic languages?

No poetry?

No decorative arts?

No festivals?

No sporting activities?

http://www.ceolas.org/events/events-eu.html

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~kevrenor/gorseth.html

http://www.eisteddfod.org.uk/english/index.html

http://celt.net/Celtic/arts.html

http://www.golowan.com/

http://www.tullochgorm.com/piping.html

http://www.clanmacrae.org/documents/games.htm

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0889465703/qid%3D1016688252/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/102-7016958-4620141

http://www.ynchruinnaght.org/

That's a brief, non-exhaustive search...

As for Celtic languages being kept alive with social engineering...

Not in Canada. Australia. New Zealand. Cornwall. Man. Brittany....etc.:

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Den/5400/

for instance.

[N. Machiavelli]

Why is there even an arguement at all? Unless I've suddenly become illiterate, the topic reads: What Civ Would You Have Included?

If a person wanted to include the Celts, that's their decision, hence the name of the thread. If you didnt want to include the Celts, then bloody mention someone else. This has no impact on anything and is 100% opinion.



What Cheese do you like to eat?

Nandmas: "I like to eat Chedder."

Blolly Moom: "You can't choose Chedder! It's not old enough to be considered a true Cheese, and is merely a distant offshoot of Provelone!"

Nandmas: "No it's not, it's common knowledge that Portwine finds it's origins in Chedder, and Portwine is centuries old!"

Blolly Moom: "You ignorant bufoon! Acording to knowledge I gleemed off the internet in the last 15 minutes: *insert long list of irrelevent websites*, you are absolutley wrong."

Nandmas: "Oh yeah? well according to my sources *insert longer list of websites as though that makes it more credible*, it is you who is wrong!"

Blolly Moom: "America sucks!"


-Names where changed to protect the guilty. If you took offense in any way, quite arguing over someone's personal choices that have 0 effect on you and keep asses like me from using it against you.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli
Why is there even an arguement at all? Unless I've suddenly become illiterate, the topic reads: What Civ Would You Have Included?

I believe I was replying to an earlier post that said why someone thought the Celts were not a worthy enough civilization to be included. Then someone else said that there was no Celtic culture around today. I fail to see how the imputation that I would make an infantile comment on America has any reference to what has been a so far, enjoyable discussion. If you don't want to read it, then don't. Why is there an argument at all? Gosh, must be your illiteracy kicking in. The question 'what civ would you have included?' to me implies making a choice on reasoned grounds supported with facts, and not on a whim.

[N. Machiavelli]

Originally posted by molly bloom


I believe I was replying to an earlier post that said why someone thought the Celts were not a worthy enough civilization to be included. Then someone else said that there was no Celtic culture around today. I fail to see how the imputation that I would make an infantile comment on America has any reference to what has been a so far, enjoyable discussion. If you don't want to read it, then don't. Why is there an argument at all? Gosh, must be your illiteracy kicking in. The question 'what civ would you have included?' to me implies making a choice on reasoned grounds supported with facts, and not on a whim.

Wow, 15 minutes. I wonder if there's a connection. You did answer my original question, albeit indirectly. I suppose it stems from this sort of defensiveness. The thought that perhaps....just perhaps....we could post a response to the topic question (without a 10-page essay or flames), is evidently so horrendous that a single person must try to refute others based on their own opinion. Heck, I didnt even mention you at all Ms. Bloom, let alone suggest that you of all people would make infintile comments on America, but since you have chosen to single yourself out, make whatever assumption you wish.

And btw, I'm still scanning my original message and cant seem to find the words "Molly Bloom". Gosh, must be that illiteracy thing kicking in as you said, perhaps you could point them out for me.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli


And btw, I'm still scanning my original message and cant seem to find the words "Molly Bloom". Gosh, must be that illiteracy thing kicking in as you said, perhaps you could point them out for me.

Trying to be smart (and failing) with unfunny anagrams: '-Names where changed to protect the guilty ', won't cover your arse.

Supporting an opinion with reasoned argument illustrates to my mind intelligence, but to yours defensiveness. Each to their own, I suppose. And hyperbole (10 page essay? flames?) doesn't replace facts. If you want to have an unreasoned rant, I'm sure there must be a vacant lot or warm grate cover near where you live. Perhaps there you'll find a dedicated audience.

[Ethelred]

And btw, I'm still scanning my original message and cant seem to find the words "Molly Bloom".

Anyone can see that you simply made a typo.

Molly was NOT telling someone what civ they couldn't have or justify. That was the person Molly was responding to that did that.

As for the 15 minute interval what about you? What about Email notification like the one I just recieved while playing Civ III.

Yes I actually play the game. Imagine someone at Apolyton on the Civ III forum that actually plays the game.

Celts are immenently justifiable. Only a Brit would claim otherwise and they stole their name from the Celts.

Heck the arrogant brits even turned Boudicea into a Viking when they made a movie about her in the Hammer Film the Viking Queen.

Its the vile rapacious English that need to go. So little civilization of own they even stole the name of their 'empire' from the Celts. If we had the celts we could have rampaging spearman dressed only in skin dye. Odd looking chariots with female warriors like Boudicea. We could even have the unspellable hero Cuchu Lainen. I have seen four or five spellings and none match the Irish pronunciation.

We want CELTS.

And Spanish too.The Spanish, the French, and the English are all trodding on land that was once Celtic so why not one more of them in the game. While I am ranting about Celtic soil I might as well mention that the Celts also invaded German and Greek territory as well.