Editor/game suggestions

[Avahz_D]

I have a few (should be easy to do) suggestions for the game and editor.


Editor:

1. Allow us to set max for both sci and lux rates in the editor seperatly(sp).

2. Remove the minimun set of 5 from the specific gov. sci rates in the editor, for the scenarios that we do not want a science advancment.

3. Increase max amount from 100 to say 500+ for science rate in the editor (not in game, just increase to option from 100 to 500+ in the editor)

4. Allow us to stop gov switching within the game if we choose it for a scen. option. (IE and ancient Egypt scen should never have the option of going to democracy)

Game:

1. IMHO Archer units are not represented as they should be, their attack is too strong and can take out an offencive unit by themselves. Some have suggested giving them a range attack bonus, but that is a problem because it allows archer to distroy buildings. I suggest doing this:

a. Droping their stats to 1/1/1

b. make them defencive units

c. Give them "ZOC"

d. and most importantly set them with the bombard ability WITH OUT ANY RANGE POINTS. This way an archer can fire off a defencive volly when their stack/city is attacked with out giving them the ability to "fire" an offencive artillery attack. When you hit the bombard button, you still get the bombard attack Icon, but you are limited to your square only, but not allowed to attack yourself.

This IMHO is a good way of giving them their range ability for offence via "ZOC" and defence volly via the current range of 0 bombard ability.

This is what I did with with the editor to the bow units in the game:
Unit (attack/def/move) (Bombard Str./BombardRange/Rate of Fire) Other

Archer (1/1/1) (1/0/1) Defencive with ZOC
Longbowman (2/2/1) (1/0/1) Defencive with ZOC cost set to 3
Bowman (2/1/1) (1/0/1) *OFFENCIVE* with ZOC (stayed offencive to give the babalonians a chance to have a golden area)

These changes to the archer were well accepted by the game itself and used alone with artillery. With the "defencive" Ranged attack only at a one, Artillery units were still VERY useful for defence as well. This allows an ancient unit to have a range attack without distroying walls and buildings AND keeping game balance in check.

I suggest other players to test this out and see what I am talking about.

Any questions let me know...

(oh excuse the um grammar and spelling, its a language thing)

[Captain]

Hey, that archer idea sounds really good!
and you say the AI can handle it too?

[Avahz_D]

Yes I have been using it from almost day one (my little evil secret so my rome scen. would be better than others =), but the betterment of the community won out on me )

Remember though you HAVE to set the bombard options on the left of the editor for it to work for some reason. The AI uses it quite well actually. Setting their Bombard str and rate of fire past one though makes them over powered. At one each it works GREAT!

I think liberterian was looking for something like this IIRC...

[Captain]

Well, I have to say it's pure genius!
This is even better than the cruise missile mod. It's amazing no one else has tried this before now.
Well, kudos to you. You deserve credit for this one! No doubt some others will take the idea and run with it on other units, so I thought I'd make sure to congratulate you before we get swamped with clones.

[Captain]

I just edited mine and I just thought of something.

What about gunpowder units? They have just as much range as archers do, if not more. Did you give them the same defensive bombard bonus?

[Avahz_D]

Well I did give ALL range units a ZOC, but I didnt change this on gunner units because I felt one would have to change ALL modern units including tanks, etc and this would have caused an imbalance in the game. This was my way of making an Archer *feel* like an archer during the ancient era.

[Dida]

so this archer just becomes a early catapult?

[Todd Hawks]

Dida has a point here. I don't see archers as some kind of ranged weapon. It's just a low value offensive unit... the name of course is misleading and in my first games I never built them because of this. But it is just a name.

If you change them to catapults maybe you should put some low value offensive unit in there. Else the next one after warrior would be swordsman for which you already need iron.

About the value for the tax and science rate: Take a look in your other thread to understand how they work and why you can't have less than 5 on any of these at the moment.
But I agree that it would be better to be able to set different max values for the tax, science and luxury rate.

[Avahz_D]

No the Archer doesnt end up an early catapult weapon. It has NO ability to attack at range. The ONLY way it can attack at range is via the ZOC special ability that a catapult does NOT have. What the archer does have is the ability to get off one free shot when its stack or city is *attacked* by another unit. A catapult can attack cities and other units with the ability to bombard. The archer does not technically have that ability because it has no range attack (a catapult has a range of 1 where as the archer has a range of 0). A catapult can distroy buildings, etc; an archer like this CAN NOT. Historically the archer has been a ranged support unit for front line shock troops. Doing what I suggested sets them up in that role. For example:

You have a stack of 1 legion and 1 archer. One persian immortal chooses to bypass your stack, the archer gets a free ZOC attack. Another immortal attacks your stack, the archer gets a free defencive attack but the legion does the actual fighting. If your legion dies and an another immortal attacks your archer in the same turn, then the archers range attack is used up for that turn and they must fight hand to hand to survive.

*note: having a free ZOC and free Defencive Attack does NOT mean that they will actually hit your enemy.

Also setting up the unit as defencive in the editor, the AI uses it as such and quite effective.

So no the catapult and archer are used by YOU and the AI differently. The user and AI have to use the Archer as a defencive unit and the catapult as an artillery unit.

Try it and you will see what I mean....

[Todd Hawks]

I understand what you mean. I still think there now is missing an early offensive unit.

And I think I wouldn't bother buildung an archer for defensive purpose like you described it for the same reason I never use catapults for this: They never do any real damage to the attacking unit. I would have to put 3 or more archers in a city to really make a difference I'd rather build 2 more spearmen.

Note: I like your idea in general but it needs tweaking for me to like it enough to play it .... maybe making the archer very, very cheap or without support cost.

[Dida]

I understand why people want to make archer a range-only unit. But, this will make them useless. The problem is not with the archer itself, it is with the combat system in Civ3. In CTP/CTP2, archers are really useful before you get cannon, because you can stack them with offensive unit, and they are great for supporting fires. But archer by themselves are easy target for offensive units, because they are no good at close combat.
But, stacked combat system will not even be in an expansion, so just forget it.

[Todd Hawks]

You can stack them the way Avahz suggested. You just have to move them together with your offensive forces.

[Avahz_D]

Oh I completely agree with you there Todd. Generally I lower the cost for the archer/bowman to 1 and the Longbowman to 2. But overall this is the best way IMHO to get the *feel* of an archer unit with what we have to work with... Before I NEVER built archers because I would rather build swordmen or spearmen (heck I dont even build horseman chariots or even calvary; I build VERY few artillery units.). My play style is defensive going for a science victory). So yea I can see were you are coming from. Doing the archer like this just gives you and the AI more options.
They do work well though backed up with a good defencive unit in a city or fort for my play style though... IMHO



Added: I was wanting to do a slinger early artillery type unit, but as with others I hit the brick wall of stones distroying buildings. (not only that I dont have a flc program)

[Avahz_D]

Slingers

Speaking of that does anyone know if there are any FLC slinger files out in the world of Civ 3.