Remarkably predictable random combat....

[Technoron]

..... Saw this same exact thing in Jagged Alliance 2....

1. Engage in several combats
2. note results
3. reload turn
4. engage in same combats in same order
5. note same results


....but civ3 even adds a little twist....
1. engage in several combats
2. note results
3. reload turn
4. engage in same combats in different order
5. note same results applied to different units

....and it holds true with goody huts too



WTF?

I see lots of rants about tanks getting handled by spearmen and the discussion is usually one of odds, 100 flips of a coin, etc,etc.....

I'm getting the impression that simple odds don't have all that much to do with it.

Who's got a clue?

[ixnay]

I believe it has to do with a random number generated before each turn, or something. This is apparently supposed to stop or at least slow reloading to try and get a more favorable outcome.

[Worthingtons]

Combat results are somehow decided before the turn, so that the AI can cheat.

[Todd Hawks]

The random number generator saves the seed in the save game file so you get the same results when reloading.
This prevents reloading to get a better result out of random events.

And I don't believe that the AI uses it to cheat.

[Rhuarc]

I actually think this was a great idea. This practically eliminates people from reloading. You have to take what comes and deal with it! I know that I personally have had to change the way I do things since this was implemented!

[Terser]

Originally posted by Rhuarc
I actually think this was a great idea. This practically eliminates people from reloading. You have to take what comes and deal with it! I know that I personally have had to change the way I do things since this was implemented!

This sort of dovetails with the whole arguement about cheating in single player games. Pardon me for ranting, but this is sort of a sore point for me...

If I--who payed $60 for the CivIII Limited Edition when it first came out--want to reload and replay each and every turn in the game to see if I get different results..why the he!! shouldn't I have that ability? When I have single player CivIII installed on my comp, it's not our game, it's my game. I should be free to reload and replay to my heart's content.

Firaxis should have spent a little more time squashing bugs and playtesting for balance and a little less time developing a system to thwart serial reloaders who aren't hurting anyone's playing experience except maybe their own. Had this saved random number seed not been in CivIII I really doubt anybody would have posted threads on this forum like:

"Hey Firaxis, make it so I can't reload when my battelship gets sunk by a tugboat!"

"Little bit sick of being able to reload when I don't like what I get from a goody hut.

[Technoron]

Uh.

K.

So the software company did this in an attempt to control their customers' style of play while they (the customers) are in the privacy of their own homes.....

Why does Firaxis feel the need to protect me from myself?

hmmmmmmmm.

I wonder what Craftsman Co. is gonna come up with to prevent me from using their screwdrivers in ways for which they were not originally intended by Craftsman Co.

[Technoron]

So the cry and moan about spearmen beating tanks is totally moot then isn't it?

The tanks aren't getting beaten by a phenominally lucky spearman. The tanks are getting beaten by a randomly generated anti-randomness variable.

The computer can pre-ordain that the first unit you attack with is gonna lose be it a warrior, knight, cavalry, tank, or battleship and it doesn't matter a damn what it's attacking.

Huh.

K.

This was NOT my bud Sid's idea was it?

[Dis]

devil's advocate

It's their game, they can program it any way they want to.

If you don't like it design your own game where you can reload every turn

But yes I used to be a reloader. But no more. It's too much of a pain in the ass to change the "seeding". But it can be done. But why bother?

I stopped "cheating" months ago. I play clean games.

[kailhun]

Originally posted by Dissident
devil's advocate

It's their game, they can program it any way they want to.

If you don't like it design your own game where you can reload every turn

By the same token: if you go to the doctor for a broken arm adn he decides not only to set that arm but to also lob your left leg of below the knee, then he can do that. After all if you wanted to have your arm set without having your (left) leg lobbed of (below the knee), then you should have studied medicine yourself!

But yes I used to be a reloader. But no more. It's too much of a pain in the ass to change the "seeding". But it can be done. But why bother?

I stopped "cheating" months ago. I play clean games.

Reloading. Loved it. Seed number saved? Hah, just changed my cheating. I find a less usefull 'seed number using thing', do that and then try again on the next saved seed number. City won't turn on the first propaganda? Reload, find a city for say 30 gold and try that, then go back to the city you want and have a go with the second saved seed. I wonder how many numbers get saved?
It changed my combat in the sense that i just throw large numbers of untis at the AI. 10 attackers for one city. The first three or four always lose, then the defenders drop without me receiving a scratch (usually). Odd, really.

Robert

[kailhun]

Originally posted by Todd Hawks
The random number generator saves the seed in the save game file so you get the same results when reloading.
This prevents reloading to get a better result out of random events.

And I don't believe that the AI uses it to cheat.

But I do.

Robert

[Aeson]

In the Civ3\Text\ folder there is a "play the world.txt" file.

MAIN MENU
Get the Game of the Week
Get the Game of the Day
View Scores
Exit
Your Current Score:

It would seem to be some sort of competition that was never set up. Perhaps Firaxis coded the random number generator to help keep such competitions honest. Not that it would work, there are still lots of ways to overcome the saved seed.

[Technoron]

Uh.

YO!!!!!!

Some of you seem to be missing the point.

This isn't about whether or not reloading is ethical/unethical or if forced honesty is ethical/unethical.

This is about modern units getting spanked by primitives NOT because the primitives got lucky, but because the programmers stuck in some stupid feature that ARBITRARILY decided that the modern was gonna be spanked.

"Unrealistic" results are not being generated because of natural twists of fate or heroic action. They are being generated by the software company's attempts to keep reloaders "honest", thereby mucking it up for those who don't NEED to be kept honest.

This is a rather blatant "balance" problem isn't it?. How the hell do you balance the strength of units when unit strength isn't what's deciding the outcomes?

Taken further, it becomes apparent that honest games are not possible. You may THINK you're being honest, but did you win that last combat based on the merit of your combat unit, or did you just get an invulnerability powerup courtesy of the meddling game designers?

what a steaming pile of crap.

[Dis]

that's really not what the thread is about. that is a slight threadjack. modern units when most of the time anyways... So could say that power still does mean something, just not as much as it used to.

[Aeson]

This is about modern units getting spanked by primitives NOT because the primitives got lucky, but because the programmers stuck in some stupid feature that ARBITRARILY decided that the modern was gonna be spanked.

"Unrealistic" results are not being generated because of natural twists of fate or heroic action. They are being generated by the software company's attempts to keep reloaders "honest", thereby mucking it up for those who don't NEED to be kept honest.

I don't think you understand how the game decides battles. There is a random number generator, the whole point of an RNG is to have varied results. Without one, there would be no chance in the game, the highest A/D value (with terrain/fortification modifications) would always win. The seed is saved in the save file. When the save game is loaded, it puts the RNG back in the same state as it would have been if you played straight through. It doesn't change the A/D values of your units or give the AI an advantage.

The only thing it prevents is the player constantly reloading to always get "good" numbers out of the RNG. If that was allowed, there wouldn't be a need for an RNG in the first place. Every result would just be what the player wanted it to be. If that's what you want, just open up HighScores.cv3 in a text editor, and type in whatever score you want. I personally don't think it makes for a very interesting game though.