'I'll tell you if you dont tell anyone else'

[steelehc]

As an experiment, I created a map, with two islands as far as possible away from a huge continent. The water around the island was all coast, but everywhere else was ocean, hopefully to prevent an AI galley on an island from reaching the mainland, or vice versa. I restarted and restarted until I ended up on one of the islands, luckily the one I had loaded with resources, huts, and generally favorable terrain. The other island was largely desert and mountains. I developed quickly, making contacvt with only the AI on the island near me. As soon as possible, I built ships, and kept building them, eventually, I had enough to blockade the other island, meaning that if anyone were to get through, I would see it. This is far more ships then I would normally build (80 or so). As I progressed through the ages, I upgraded my ships, and filled in the holes in the line.

When I had completely closed off all access to the other island, I sent a frigate out to find the other AIs. I had a couple/three more techs then all of them, which I sold for much gold and maps, and contact, etc...

When I finally reached the modern era, third, behind a couple AIs, the civ on the island was still in the middle ages, with something like ten gold, the most useless world map, and being completely blockaded, couldnt trade. I sold contact with this civ (the Zulu, I think), to each of the AI civs. Within two turns, this backwards, dirt-poor, useless, pityful and blockaded civ had reached the modern era.

Something is wrong with this.

Steele

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Arrian
Well, actually that's only true on Regent level. According to Soren (see 1.17 and AI vs. AI research "trading" thread), the AI is aware of its research advantage or disadvantage (depending on level of play) and includes that knowledge in trade calculations. This is why it will charge you more for techs on the higher levels - it knows you have to invest more beakers than another AI to learn a tech.

Ah so. That is very useful information. I usually play Monarch or Emperor, and trade aggressively, so I never noticed the problem. I have seen many posts complaining about the problem, though.

This makes sense, as humans (on a higher level) are playing with a voluntary handicap. The human just needs to have lots of money. The AIs are not really ganging up, the human just needs lots of cash to keep everyone happy.

This information will help with creating effective strategies. They don't hate me, after all! It's just my national currency is taking a beating in the global money markets. Like paying in pesos.

THANKS, ARRIAN!

[notyoueither]

steelehc: Excellent experiment. You seem to have put the AI trading practices in a bright light. Even though techs would be cheap for them (because eveyone else has them) it is hard to believe what they could have bartered, borrowed and stole to advance so rapidly. Have you sent an email to Soren about it? Did he reply?

Hmmm. Is it possible it sold city improvements? I'm sure I have games where the AI is selling improvements. Used the *multi* switch to look around at past saved games and capitals seemed to be overly light on improvements.

Zac: You have it right. It is not that it is 7 vs 1, at least in my limited experience (2 1.17 games on Emperor). I have had no problem keeping up tech wise. I just needed enough cash. To paraphrase someone or other, *Build Marketplaces young man, and go West to Republic.*

The AI isn't picking on me tech wise, they just ain't being my fools anymore. I guess that can be an adjustment for some.

Salve

[Worthingtons]

Oops, I didn't read this thread before giving an almost identical idea of an exclusive 20-turn patent on an invented technology in another thread. No plagiarizing intended, I swear . The "secret" thread title is partially at fault for not getting my attention before reading the other thread .

No Worries

I've become very disheartened with the AI tech trading now, and my stratagy has developed into a money making one where i spend next to nothing on Research, buy off the AI, and only spend money on tech when i *Really* want to get a tech early. This stratagy seems to worked quite well in my latest game,where i had a good lead in the game anyway, due to a favorable start, and i've lagged behind for most of the game, until the industrial age, where i spend nearly all of my £££££ on Research, I now have Tanks before the Japs and it's paying off.

[Barchan]

Originally posted by steelehc

When I finally reached the modern era, third, behind a couple AIs, the civ on the island was still in the middle ages, with something like ten gold, the most useless world map, and being completely blockaded, couldnt trade. I sold contact with this civ (the Zulu, I think), to each of the AI civs. Within two turns, this backwards, dirt-poor, useless, pityful and blockaded civ had reached the modern era.

Something is wrong with this.

Steele

Well, not exactly. "A stronger enemy of your enemy is a stronger ally." I've beefed up "poorer relations" a few times myself in games, especially when they've been quarreling with neighbors. Better to sell, or even give if necessary, the tech required to keep them alive and happy with you than to see their land taken and improved by your rival. Wars by proxy can be very satisfying! Besides, if they're that backward, they won't catch up to you anyway due to a lack of infrastructure.

[Dienstag]

I think steelehc's experiment is excellent, and I agree that there's something wrong here.

Barchan is right that it is sometimes strategically beneficial to make generous deals with weaker civs, and this would be one explanation for steelehc's neighbor's instant rise to modernity. This requires that the AI has a good sense of balance of power, which I have yet to see anyone praise. I can't prove that the AI doesn't have perfectly valid and compelling strategic reasons to be generous with such an extremely weak civ. I just really really doubt it, based on everything I've experienced and read concerning CivIII.

[steelehc]

I think steelehc's experiment is excellent, and I agree that there's something wrong here.

steelehc: Excellent experiment. You seem to have put the AI trading practices in a bright light. Even though techs would be cheap for them (because eveyone else has them) it is hard to believe what they could have bartered, borrowed and stole to advance so rapidly. Have you sent an email to Soren about it? Did he reply?

Thanks for the comments about my experiment.

I did not think about commenting to Soren, I'll try to remember to do that when I have a chance.

As a side note, I tried the experiment again, but slightly different. I sold contact with the trapped civ in the industrial age instead of the modern age. It took six turns for them to become industrialized, which is much less impressive.


Steele

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by steelehc
Something is wrong with this.
Steele

Good experiment, Steele. I'm not sure it indicates something wrong with the game, though. Just because they now have the "secret" of industrialization does not mean they now have factories, nor does currency translate directly into marketplaces. They still need to build the infrastructure which can take generations -- depending on the level.

I, too, always prop up minor civs to annoy my rivals, and to help build a better world. For instance, I always give or sell them medicine and education.

[aahz_capone]

I heartely agree with this. It should be more expensive to put such conditions on trading but it should exist (With penalties like a refund if they break the deal). I also play by helping the small civ in non military techs, in the interest of "World peace and good will to all", but the computer always thinks I have some evil alterior motive (I RARELY DO, REALLY!!)

But seriously, I am gratefully thankful that the AI doesn't trade tech in your turn anymore, but the balance in the last patch, the fact that they trade techs amongst themselves like madmen, REALLY pisses me off! They must trade techs for like 1 gold a piece! I'm not kidding. I'm playing a game where the Japs were totally isolated except for my contact and 6 techs behing the rest of the world. I thought I'd keep them that way because I was 3 techs behind the rest and could sell the difference to them for mucho $$$. I had to wait though because they had NOTHING worth trading (no cash or lux) However they met the enlish and within 5 turns they were AHEAD of me in tech. pathetic!

And another thing, sometimes the AI just doesn't except offers which are immensly in their favour. like one tech for 5 techs, 2000 gold and a city or two. These AIs NEVER trade cities unless you demand them to end war (or you've been at war once, but you still have to DEMAND them). Not even a no culture, 1 size piece of crap which is NOWHERE near them for a rediculous amount of techs and cash. What's up with this?!

[Arrian]

Steele,

I like your experiment too. Once question, though: did the Zulu have any tradeable commodities? Lets say they have a monopoly on the world's gems (total of 6 deposits). They make 5 gem trades with the other AI's. Because the the industrial age techs were now totally worthless (due to the massive tech devaluation since everyone knew them), the Zulu probably get most, if not all, of them from the very first trade, along with a luxury in return. Repeat process, with the techs becoming more expensive, until the Zulu have caught up in tech.

-Arrian

[nato]

How cool! I also give away lots of tech/money to try to give an enemy a strong neighbor. Maybe that should be mentioned in the strategy forum (if it doesn't seem too obvious).

That was a pretty big experiment to run Steel. You've got real Civ dedication! I can only imagine the massive turbulence the poor Zulus went through modernizing so fast. Anomine or something.

For instance, I always give or sell them medicine and education.

Wow Zachriel that is an imaginitive way to "role play" being a good guy ... I never thought of that, good one. I like it.

[steelehc]

Steele,

I like your experiment too. Once question, though: did the Zulu have any tradeable commodities? Lets say they have a monopoly on the world's gems (total of 6 deposits). They make 5 gem trades with the other AI's. Because the the industrial age techs were now totally worthless (due to the massive tech devaluation since everyone knew them), the Zulu probably get most, if not all, of them from the very first trade, along with a luxury in return. Repeat process, with the techs becoming more expensive, until the Zulu have caught up in tech.

-Arrian

I did think of resources, and they did have a few (3 ivory, 3 incense, 1 horse, 2 coal, maybe some others...), but I had completely blockaded the island (or at least tried). I will run it again, but making sure I have completed my blockade.

That was a pretty big experiment to run Steel. You've got real Civ dedication!

It only took about two hours total. Not that big of a deal, just innovative.

Once again, thanks for your compliments.

Steele

[notyoueither]

BTW steele. Are you really blockading the island if you are not at war with them? AI units no longer prevent use of tiles when they are trespassing near your cities, so are you really stopping his trade?

Salve

[steelehc]

I was hoping that by covering every tile of water around the island, I could prevent trading of resources, however I may have been mistaken. If so, this kinda throws off the results I got here. Could someone confirm or deny that merely stationing ships off an island is not enough to prevent trading resources?

Steele

[Bautou]

One time, I used a save game editor to swap positions with the AI (change to a civ that the computer used to control). One very interesting thing that I saw was that the big civ that I took over was paying 30 gold/turn for a peace treaty with the last-place civ (that had five cities in total). (I also saw that there was actually a one-for-one luxury trade deal too ). Perhaps this is how the backward AI gets the income to buy all the tech it needs?