A Slice of Civ3 Feedback From The Official MOO3 Forum

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Ming
I'm sorry, I have to disagree on this one. Buying a video game isn't even close to being personal... it's not a matter of more personal or less personal... it's not personal... period.

Then insulting them wouldn't have the effect you keep complaining about now would it?

Charles.

[Ming]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
Then insulting them wouldn't have the effect you keep complaining about now would it?
Charles.

Uhhh... you seem to misunderstand. It does have the exact effect that I claim it does. It makes the people who do it look foolish

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Ming


Uhhh... you seem to misunderstand. It does have the exact effect that I claim it does. It makes the people who do it look foolish

No, that's not what you said though - you said that the company in question (Firaxis) would take offense to our criticism and insults. And during you're flaming war with Yin you claimed that insulting Firaxis would (basically in different wording) become somehow hurt or rejected by those offensive remarks. So if that's true, you contradicted yourself by clearly stating that business and personal are two different things entirely. In other words Firaxis with any mature standards or proffesional policy would not in any shape or form become offended by the criticism or the insults by the fans. And if you're view is just that, then I agree completely. Besides - we already know that they're un-affected because they don't answer critics and they ignore insults. And I don't think they care either way.

Charles.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
Simple, I was in the middle of a debate with another member of this board and you rudely interupted by joining my debate opponent and slandering my views on the matter. Normally that would be fine, everybody does it. But you're important commentary turned out to be meaningless childish slanderous rant.

Terribly sorry for interrupting you, Charley, but this is an open discussion board. If you don't wish your posts commented, you are free to communicate via PM. Everybody except the thread starter at some point "jumped in". And in my "meaningless childish slanderous rant" I just tried to show, that there are possible other points of view. You tried to blame Firaxis for all what is going on here (oh Sancta Simplicita), and I tried to find another explanation. I am far from finding their silence good, but at least I can understand it, because the same rule exists at my work. It's obvious that you didn't yet work in a company. Meaningless childish slanderous rant? 0 points for you so far, Charley.

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
And yes I'm calling you rude, and if you want to debate with me, I have no problem with that - but at least stick to topic and once you make a point, don't repeat the same point and then resort to childish smart@ass remarks.

Oh, my initial post was certainly on topic, your remarks that "now made more sense" added nothing important than new blames and rants. I am sorry to admit that you dragged me off topic after that. I will part this useless discussion after this post. Count yourself the winner, I don't care. At this point certainly a cent worth, your remark, but not two. But rude? You have yet to catch me to use profanities.

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
Now I was talking about how I agree with Yin on his point of view, was there something important you would like to add to that discussion, or just more snide remarks?

Now I was talking about how I disagree with your point of view. I have no need to please somebody with my posts, and I have the same right to express my opinion like you. You expressed your point of view, I disagreed. "Yea" sayer vs. "Nay" sayer, Yin vs. Yang (no offense, Yin ). There was no need for you to disagree that I disagree. So who wrote the snide remarks?

[MarkG]

Re: Re: About this "whiner" label.

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
Why does everyone feel that they look more 'right' or appear more 'intelligent' if they quote philosophy or literature?

you gave your... opinion on the definition of a word. in reply i quoted three dictionaries. nothing to do with philosophy....

So everyone that complains, or gripes about a mishap or a disapointment is a 'whiner'.

please re-read the post. keywords: habitually, excessive, childish

Nice logic.

it's not logic, it's a simple reference...

[Ming]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
No, that's not what you said though - you said that the company in question (Firaxis) would take offense to our criticism and insults. And during you're flaming war with Yin you claimed that insulting Firaxis would (basically in different wording) become somehow hurt or rejected by those offensive remarks.

You are incorrect... I have stated that they will ignore people who are insulting them (for good reason), and that to do so is a immature way to complain to them...

[Velociryx]

Didn't say anything about buying a video game being personal, but your comment was to make a distinction between business and personal.

Business is NOT about makin' money....no matter what they teach in school, it just isn't so.

The heart and soul of every well run business I've ever been a part of was about real, personal relationships with people....customers.

Do that, provide a quality product, and the money will follow by extension.

Your comment before seemed to draw a line between the two: "It's business...deal with it."

My contention is that any business operating that cavalierly will soon find itself out of business in the worst case, and in the best case, they'll wind up alienating an increasing segment of their customer base.

-=Vel=-

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Velociryx
The heart and soul of every well run business I've ever been a part of was about real, personal relationships with people....customers.-=Vel=-

I have a personal relationship with Bill Gates. Everytime my computer crashes I talk to him in a very loud voice.

Meanwhile, I think I'll go to the fridge and work on my personal relationship with Anheuser-Busch.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Didn't say anything about buying a video game being personal, but your comment was to make a distinction between business and personal.

While you didn't directly say it... your "relationship" with the company is just that... you bought a a video game. Nothing more, nothing less.

Business is NOT about makin' money....no matter what they teach in school, it just isn't so.

I have to disagree... Business is about making money. People start "businesses" with the intent to make money. Organizations with no intent to make money are "not for profit"... hobbies... professional associations...
And in this specific case... Firaxis and their publisher are in business to MAKE money. They are not in business just to provide the best possible game. That may be an objective to make money... but their goal is to make money in the process.

The heart and soul of every well run business I've ever been a part of was about real, personal relationships with people....customers.

Again... that might me an objective, or a method to make more money... but that is not the primary goal of that company. They are in business to make money, pure and simple.
Now, in the service industry... relationship building is an important element for making money. When you are selling a "service", and not a product, service is the key. But again, sevice is just a tool for obtaining profits.

My contention is that any business operating that cavalierly will soon find itself out of business in the worst case, and in the best case, they'll wind up alienating an increasing segment of their customer base.

I can't argue that point... because there is truth in what you say.
Yet on the other hand... a company that provides the best service in the world, but doesn't make a profit, will go out of business.

Again... your relationship with Firaxis is very simple. You bought a video game. It was a business transaction. They made money, and you got a piece of software. There is absolutely nothing personal about it.

[Tarquelne]

CharlesUF. wrote:

"I made a few adjustments in bold text, and now it makes more sense. Anything asside from that is only you're opinion and I'm not here to argue over opinion, nor do I care."

I wanted to jump in ... but I was having a terrible time trying to reign in my propensity toward sarcasm and just argue in a straightforward manner. Respond almost line-by-line, or just pick out what I thought were the worst statements and concentrate on those? As I was looking over past messages I decided that the above quote was by _far_ the most important. Lets look at it, shall we?

"I made a few adjustments in bold text, and now it makes more sense."

CUF had put forth his interpretation of what had happened with Civ3, Firaxis, and "the Community. Sir Ralph responded with his interpretation, an alternate interpretation. CUF responded by offering his re-interpretation of SR's. Note that CUF states that his new interp. "makes more sense." This is the whole of his "argument" against SR's interpretation.

"Anything asside from that is only you're opinion..."

I'm not certain if CUF is deningrating SR's opinion ("ONLY YOUR opinion") or making a distinction - that his (CUF's) words are fact, and that SR's are "only" opinion. I think its the latter, as:

"...and I'm not here to argue over opinion..."

So I think that CUF's position is that what _he_ writes is hard FACT, and what those who he disagrees with write is opinion.

This, of course, is _not_ an indication that CUF is here to argue in good faith. No, instead it's a nice little immunization strategy that allows him to simply and quickly discard _anything_ written that he doesn't like.
But it gets better! The statement ended with:

"... nor do I care."

What's that? Doesn't care about what? About what he calls opinion? What SR writes? Or the whole thing? Whatever interpretation we give to the statement, it leads, again, to the belief that CUF isn't here to argue. Instead, he seems to be here to make pronouncments. They may be put forth in the form of argument, but there is _no possibility_ that _anything_ written will change is mind.

Thus, I think a sarcastic, or even abusive, response is actually appropriate!

Lets talk about CUF's psychology, OK?

CUF wrote:

"But you're important commentary turned out to be meaningless childish slanderous rant. In other words, you offered nothing to that debate, and you're only intention (from what I could see) was to get my attention so that you could feel like you're apart of the group."

Is everyone familiar with the concept of "Projection?" That people tend to project onto others thier own thoughts and traits? I think it's a very powerfull, very usefull concept. Please, everyone, look at Sir Ralph's post. I submit that it was far from a "childish slanderous rant." I submit, in fact, that they _only_ reason someone would interpret it as such is because of projection. I believe this, when combined with use of the word "meaningless", indicates that CUF is a childish person, who's here mainly seeking... probably not so much attention, but rather a validation of his own thougts via what I call the "spew" method. He "spews" his, ah, "opinions" into the forum and so feels empowered. All he needs is to feel that one other poster agrees with him to seperate the world into two halves: First, the intelligent, reasonable people who can see the world clearly - who agree with him. The other half contains the childish, the dim, and those who are attempting to ingratiate themselves with Firaxis for no well defined reason.

"Roget’s II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition. 1995
A person who habitually complains or grumbles

WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
a person given to excessive complaints and crying

Why does everyone feel that they look more 'right' or appear more 'intelligent' if they quote philosophy or literature?"

There's a debate about whether "whiner" can be justifiably attributed to certain persons... someone points out the definition of the word in an attempt to demonstrate a "match" between "whiner" and the behavior of some posters... OK?

CUF's response to this simple argument is, bizzarly, that the poster was trying to simply hype his ego/appearance by appealing to philosophy or "literature."

I'm not sure what the proper interpretation is here. Is CUF such a dim-bunny that he considers Roget's New Thesarus "literature", or that knowing the meaning of words is some high-falut'n philosophical sophistry?
Or is it that he commonly feels inadequate compared to those who know something of philosophy or literature? So threatend by such people that even simply looking up something in a dictionary "pressed his buttons" and broght forth those feelings of inadequacy?

Or is it just that his opponent's argument was a good one, and the only way he could think of to discard it was to characterize it as merely and _only_ a self-aggrendazing act on the part of his opponent? Note, here, that I say "discard" the argument, not "counter" it. My little quote of the day is "Never attribute to malice what can equally well be attributed to stupdity."

I don't think it likely that CUF thought to himself "Hmm, that appeal to the dictionary was well done - my opponent now merely needs to demonstrate that some of the critics of Civ3 have been childish, excessive or _habitual_ complainers to make a strong argument vis a vis their whininess. I shall attempt to distract him with an ad hominem attack." No, I think that CUF's twisted brain squirmed around some in it's squishy cage, and the thought "He's just one of those book freaks." (or somesuch) allowed him to forget about/ignore the argument.



You know, there are _two_ Civ3 games. One on CD and hard drive, the other is web-based...

[Velociryx]

Ming....it's not that I disagree with you...just that our personal experiences have been qualitatively different.

I just formed my own company....Velocigames.

I didn't form it to make a profit.

You might find that humorous or bad business, but you wanna know why I formed it?

I formed it cos I love makin' games, and there's nobody on the market makin' my kinna games.

Now....makin' games is all well and good, but if nobody plays them, then what value is there to the game? Very little, I would say....so, I need to get people pumped up about playing the game.

To that end, we're working on concept art, sketches, and stuff that'll all be a part of the company website when such a creature exists (right now, it's in the planning stages, but nothing's up yet....nonetheless, if you're curious about some of the stuff I've done, I've got one that's worth looking at....a scene sketch of what one of the provinces looks like)

http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/hartpence/mhaven.html

Again, I must stress the point....I'm NOT doing it for the money.

I think though, than in the end, the money will be there.

Bad business?

I think not.

By putting our fans first, even before they exist....by focusing on creating a quality product....the money part will fall into place.

When it's about the money, you get product rushed out the door before it's ready just so you can sell it during the Christmas season.

When it's about the people who BUY the game, you get magic.



-=Vel=-

[Ming]

Velociryx
I am aware of your latest venture... and I can only say one thing...


And I do believe you when you say you aren't in it for the money. And I do wish you the best of luck.

However, I have to be realistic here. If you don't make money, or should I say... IF YOU LOSE money. How long will you be in business. What's the figure for the point of no return. Sure, if it only cost you a couple of thousand dollars to continue, fine.
But what if in the long run, we start talking about losing 10 thousand... 100 thousand... a million dollars. Will you still be in business?

I'm glad you think that in the long run, your efforts will be rewarded with profits. But if you can't show profits, or the ability to generate profits... investors will not invest... and the people involved will not be willing to continue losing money. It might continue as a "hobby"... but it won't be a "business".

I've been involved in such ventures myself. And when it comes down to hitting up the all involved groups for more money to continue... and it happens OVER AND OVER again... and people have to start making hard decisions on whether it is all worth it...

So again... my intent isn't to wish you bad luck or make a prediction that you will fail. I'm just pointing out reality.

The purpose of a business is to make money... or, at least not lose money. In this case... Firaxis is in it for the money. It's that simple. Yes, they are probably proud of what they produce... and have a heavy investment in it... but at the end of the day, profits will be the deciding factor in any decision they make. And there is nothing wrong with that. They are a business!

[Harovan]

Vel, while appreciating your Candle'bre efford, I have to ask: Is it really a company (a business) what you formed, or is it rather a club of enthusiasts?

[Velociryx]

Hey man, and thanks! We're flying in the face of conventional wisdom, that's for sure!

Oh, I'll not deny that maintaining profitability is a key, important factor in keeping the business going. No doubt or denying it. However, in my mind, it's a matter of those priorities you mentioned earlier.

Customers....fans....supporters of the industry....they're pretty smart folks, and can readily sniff out when somebody is taking them for a ride and when someone really, truly cares what they think, want, and feel.

Because of that, my first priority is to make friends of the fans of whatever software we create. And because we're friends, I'm not gonna allow the company to produce anything but the best, cos that's what friends do.

So....if we miss the Christmas selling season then....we miss it.

But when it hits the shelf, it'll be good, and it'll be ready, and our fans will appreciate that fact, I think (they sure seem to over at Blizzard, for example).

And on the other side of the coin, we'll ask our friends and fans to keep us in business (ie - buy the software) so we can do it again....(eventually - our initial releases will be free so everybody can see what we're doing and where we're going with it....also gives everybody a chance to voice their opinion on the shape of things for the commercial release).

If we do it well and do it right, enough people will appreciate what we're doing that we'll stay afloat. If not....well, then we don't need to be doing it anyway.

In the end, yes, profit is a motive (the means of continuing to operate the business), but not THE motive. I believe that if you ask most people who start up companies, you'll not get "money" as the primary answer.

It's about the passion.

Lose that....boil it down to the lowest common denominator (the money), and you lose the magic you started with, and IMO, companies venture down that road at their peril.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Sir Ralph! Right now, it's more like a club, but we're organizing along business lines, cos in a matter of weeks (or less?) we'll be able to add "Inc." behind the name....so, yes....we started as a "club" of enthusiastic people, became a team somewhere along the way, and are heading straight for incorporation... Stay tuned....Much Magic Ahead

-=Vel=-