A Slice of Civ3 Feedback From The Official MOO3 Forum

[Encomium]

CRITICISM?

If Firaxis didn't charge me $44.95, plus $19.95 fort a strategy guide, I wouldn't complain.

If Firaxis was RESPONSIVE to the public, I would complain a lot less. But they remain smug, arrogant, and unresponsive.

If Firaxis didn't want criticism it should have told us there was no way to create scenarios in Civ III as there is in Civ II. What a rip-off that is!!

Firaxis also likely hires shills to defend their flawed product on the forums. Well, it isn't working. Most of us will be back playing Civ II by Summer, or earlier.

Put out a good product, and there will be no criticism.

Civ III

[OneInTen]

Originally posted by Encomium
Most of us will be back playing Civ II by Summer, or earlier.

You go do that. Please. And take the ****ing horse you rode in on with you.

[Ironikinit]

Now is the time when I praise the ignore feature.

Oh ignore
It's you I adore
Don't hit their butts
On their way out the door.

You're good for my blood pressure,
My nerves are now cool,
I don't have to read Ecomium
That's guy's a real tool.

WE ALL LOVE THE IGNORE FEATURE!

Oh, and welcome to the list, Andy.

[TechWins]

You go do that. Please. And take the ****ing horse you rode in on with you.

Well, looking at the age of that f*cking horse, he rode on in on the same horse as you. So why don't you get on that f*cking horse, as well, and go along with him? Better yet, why don't you just ride off on that f*cking horse by yourself!? Don't worry, though, I won't even go into what you're going to do that poor horse once you're alone with it.

BtW, anybody at anytime is welcome to join in on a discussion...kind of just like what I did.

[OneInTen]

Oh yes, point to the amount of time someone's been on a forum, because that's obviously a good indicator of life the universe and everything.

Gee that Mark guy must always be right since he was the first here, huh?

[Cossack]

Tarquelne,

I see that you specialise in absolutely pointless posts, so why don't you sit down and shut the **** up and the rest of us can get on with what the thread is about.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by OneInTen


You go do that. Please. And take the ****ing horse you rode in on with you.

Good one!

[Roy H Smith]

About this "whiner" label.

Whiners complain about nothing, a splinter is the same as a broken arm to them. A Critic evaluates the good and the bad and sometimes he has to give a thumbs down. It's unfair to label someone a "whiner" if their criticism is justified.

Now I don't know where everyone fits on the love Civ III-hate Civ III line and I won't pretend to be able to read your mind and I don't do personal attacks...so I'll just be honest.

First, some background. I'm a God/Diety/El Supremo player in Civ/Civ2 and SMAC (or BRAC). I've paid and played Civ 3 for two-three weeks now.

It's not a lack of skill. I can handle AI cheating, adjusted to Culture and Resources (and can use them to my advantage now), and I accept defeat, flexibility is not the problem.

My point is pretty simple really - read through the criticism here...even the poll has people has 1 person feeling screwed for every happy 2 campers. If you added it those that felt the game was buggy or are still waiting for the big payoff then the fans that are thrilled with it are a minority.

It doesn't mean they are wrong but anyone that feels less than thrilled shouldn't have to apologize for it.

Yin got slammed for "we" statements. I think I'll be more conservative.

"Most" of us realize this isn't flawless software.
"Most" of us spent money on it.
"Most" of us know that Infogrames knew it was incomplete.
"Most" of us trusted them.
"Some" of us feel screwed because we did.

And even "Most" of us game veterans don't expect a perfect piece of software but don't expect real problems with it either.

Multiplayer/Editor
Believe it or not I don't care about these things.
I miss the little things - Wonder Movies (which SMAC had) and a much better interface (not the Visual Basic tiny button thing we have now).

A "few" (less than 50%) are thrilled with it. Good for you. Many of us might be thrilled with the finished game but that's not what we bought and expected. And for $50 deserved.

To be told to change things on my own is not a solution...it's the blame shifting attempt to weasel out of poor/no playtesting. And I seriously feel bad for some people here who had far worse game problems than mine or paid even more for the LE.

Different I can handle, hard I can adjust to, but I can't wait three minutes a turn. Are all the dozens of bug reports made up? And we could spend years questioning the wisdom of certain game design choices (notice my Civ 4 threads).

But "we" "whiners" feel screwed because we trusted the Sid Meier name and got a less than stellar production. If you love it, I'll say it again - good for you - but when others critize it ask yourself a question? Are the critics right?

Is 60% of the game good placement?
Is the game too linear?
Has it been streamlined too much?
Is the interface unattractive?
Are there lots of things you miss from Civ2 and SMAC?
Is the late game tedious?
Were obvious bugs and problems ignored to rush the game?
Did the patch fail to address most/all of the real problems?

Answer yes to any and Congradulations! You're a whiner too.

[Harovan]

Re: About this "whiner" label.

Is 60% of the game good placement? - yes
Is the game too linear? - no
Has it been streamlined too much? - yo/nes
Is the interface unattractive? yes
Are there lots of things you miss from Civ2 and SMAC? yes
Is the late game tedious? yes
Were obvious bugs and problems ignored to rush the game? yes
Did the patch fail to address most/all of the real problems? yes

Answer yes to any and Congradulations! You're a whiner too.

No. Still playing the game. I just try to be honest.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
Now is the time when I praise the ignore feature.

Oh ignore
It's you I adore
Don't hit their butts
On their way out the door.

You're good for my blood pressure,
My nerves are now cool,
I don't have to read X
That's guy's a real tool.

WE ALL LOVE THE IGNORE FEATURE!

It's certainly getting to the point where that would be useful. Then the heavy critics can only see a forum full of bile and the happy Civvers will only see supportive posts. Everybody wins except the moderators who will still have to read it all

[MarkG]

Re: About this "whiner" label.

Originally posted by Roy H Smith
My point is pretty simple really - read through the criticism here...even the poll has people has 1 person feeling screwed for every happy 2 campers. If you added it those that felt the game was buggy or are still waiting for the big payoff then the fans that are thrilled with it are a minority.

if that isnt an assumption, i dont know what is....

A "few" (less than 50%) are thrilled with it.

1) perhaps i have a different understanding of english but "less than 50%" is not "few". "less than 50%" can be from "few" to "a large part" according to what exactly that "less than 50%" is(10%, 20%, 30%, 40%)
2) taking a fact(poll results) and then adding to it an assumption doesnt make a good argument imho

To be told to change things on my own is not a solution...

it is, if you want a better game. those who followed this sollution are now enjoying a better game. people who will agree with you are left waiting for the next patch and post here in yet another whiners-fanboys thread. who's in a better position?

Different I can handle, hard I can adjust to, but I can't wait three minutes a turn.

what kind of game have you've been playing? i've never had 3 minutes turns...

If you love it, I'll say it again - good for you - but when others critize it ask yourself a question? Are the critics right?

not all things are black or white. not all things matter the same to all(example: you dont care about MP)

Answer yes to any and Congradulations! You're a whiner too.

totally wrong definition!! it's one thing to criticise, to post your opinion. it's another to post it 30 times over and over again. THAT is a whiner...

[Tarquelne]

Cossack:

I've seen at least 2 other people now complain about overzelous use of "we"... and I see that _you_ didn't use it in your last post.... so maybe I do have a point, eh?

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by MarkG
yes, while at same time supporting the use(actually, direct copy) of such things as stacks, public works and slic in civ3....

Of course...

So let's work this backwards, to the game which actually has a chance of being the best.

Markos, what Civ3 features would you like to see in CtP2?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by yin26
Now, to many people here, constructive and consistent are oxymorons...to which I would normally agree except to say that it is, therefore, Firaxis' job to keep us more informed as to what is going on.

Yet, they don't. Thus, the consistent complaint. And, therefore, the often mis-used term: "Whiner."

when there is a set and announce policy of not announcing specific changes before a patch is ready to be released, as in our case, repeative posting of the same complaints/bug reports/etc DOES end up being whining no matter how constructive it might have been the first or the second time.

in our situation, firaxis' answer to complaints are patches. wait for the next patch, there is no need to repeat the same stuff over and over again. if the patch does not respond to your needs then simply walk away. you certainly have better things to do than wait for answers that arent coming....

[Tarquelne]

"It's unfair to label someone a "whiner" if their criticism is justified."

I agree with that... mostly. Or maybe I just want to be a little more specific. I think someone's a whiner if their criticism is out of proportion to the flaw(s) being criticized. Too many people seem far too _definite_ about Civ3's flaws - declaiming in very, very strong and absolute terms "features" that, as far as I can see, aren't disliked by most (many?) Civ3 players. Many people seem to equate "I don't like it." with "It's broken/buggy/bad/criminal negligence."

Or, really, maybe for me that's the essence of "whining" - failing to see that one's argument is that, an argument, not an obvious, forgone, we-all-agree-with-it conclusion.

"It doesn't mean they are wrong but anyone that feels less than thrilled shouldn't have to apologize for it."

That's certainly true - but, and I think this should be obvious, those who are pleased by the game shouldn't have to apologize for that, either. Or defend their "civ" credentials. I've seen the argument put forward that anyone enjoying Civ3 just doesn't, to paraphrase, know what they're talking about.

And I've seen the reverse argument too, of course.
There is, however, a similar, but not identical, argument that I believe can be validly leveled against many of those most critical of Civ3: Most of the "flaws" they criticise/complain/whine about are not really so much flaws, but rather _things that make Civ3 less of a direct sequal to Civ2 or SMAC._

I think it's fine to be disappointed that Civ3 doesn't follow the Civ2/SMAC design philosophy, but it isn't correct criticize Civ3 as a failed Civ2/SMAC. I think that's just as invalid as slamming Civ3 for not having EAX sound, running at 60fps or having configurable weapon hotkeys and reverse mouse-look as options.

"Mosts"

All those "mosts" look good to me. The only one I want to comment on is "most of us trusted Infogrammes."

True or not, I think it was foolish to trust the publisher, or (a related phenomena, I beleive) to swallow even one word of hype or trust any sort of "preview" or before-release statement from Info. or Firaxis.

"Different I can handle, hard I can adjust to, but I can't wait three minutes a turn."

That all sounds very reasonable to me. I think the "wait three min. a turn" is a very valid criticism of Civ3 - I'm very glad that you didn't say "we all can't wait three min. a turn."

"Are all the dozens of bug reports made up?"

Most (or at least many) games have a bonanza of bugs when released. I think it's very praisworthy when a game doesn't, but I'm not going to ding a game for having bugs. EXCEPT for Civ3's Air Support bug. That was a play-feature that was very obviously missing and had a fairly large impact on gameplay.

"And we could spend years questioning the wisdom of certain game design choices (notice my Civ 4 threads)."

I think that's different from whats being called "whining".

"Answer yes to any and Congradulations! You're a whiner too."

Oh, come on. The questions you asked were all interesting Socraticly
phrased criticisms, not whines. I'd enjoy discussing them.