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**Moral Hazard** · December 20, 2001, 03:00

I like your idea of a mixed market for the EU, but I'd question it's use for the British commonwealth (Yes their economies are more mixed than that of the US, but they still operate under the same principle aka managerial capitalism).

I'm also not sure if pakistan should be a seperate Civ, they are playing a role today, but only since they border afgamistan; plus communism seems a poor choice for the arab league.

**Fayadi** · December 20, 2001, 04:37

The name of Indonesian President should be Megawati SukarnoPutri.
Israel is a tiny land and why put that into a nation?They should be included in arab country....How could you put those rogue states a threat to Israel?Are you saying Palestinians a rogue state too?How could you know whether Israel or Palestine way is right?I am not Arab or MiddleEast ,I am Chinese so dont misunderstand that I am sort of brainwashed ,racist.

**redstar1** · December 20, 2001, 06:01

I think in a scenario of this scale Israel must be included as it takes up so much of the worlds interest. This type of scenario could work very well depending on the scenario building tools that may become available. You seem to have covered the world quite well although I think perhaps having 2 civs in S. America might work better as opposed to 1 and you could perhaps include Korea with Japan.

I hope you are going to have the Falkland Islands in, just to annoy the Argies

Dave

**nato** · December 20, 2001, 10:13

Long but thought out reply

I like your list cam hardy. Here is mine along with some thoughts.

Even 16 civs is not enough to really simulate the world. Therefore, you have to decide which conflicts you want to have, and which ones will get lost due to not enough independent nations.

First, you have to decide what differences are most important. Different foreign policy and friends / enemies, or different government and culture? I will go with different foreign policy, to better simulate conflicts and possible wars.

Second, you have to decide important areas. For instance, if you want to model the Middle East real well, Iraq and Iran have to be seperate civs, because they are major rivals and fought a long war. However, if you are more interested in the US, then Iran and Iraq can be merged into one civ, since they are both hostile to the US. Yes, that is totally unrealistic, but decisions like that have to be made due to having only 16 civs. You have to choose your points of interest and lose others.

I think the world could be done fairly well with 22 civs. Obviously 6 would have to go; which ones depend on what areas you want to focus on, and what areas you are less interested in.

Here they are:

1. USA - Like you said

2. EU - Like you said. However, although I really love the UK, I don't see much of a reason to have it seperate from the EU (even after Thatcher!). I just don't see how the UK's foreign policy will be substantially different from the EU, so I don't think having them seperate adds much. I'd rather save the precious slot where it can make more of a difference.

3. Russian Federation - Like you said. Give them the Baltics, but fill those cities with EU natives with a high chance to defect.

4. Central Asian Republics - It would be nice if they could be a seperate civ because they are a big potential conflict area between Russia, China, Turkey, and other Islamic countries, especially Iran. All those countries either want the land or lots of influence. However, since Russia does have a lot of troops and influence in all of these, if they were cut put them in Russia like you said, but with Muslim citizens of some civ.

5. Eastern Europe - Basically Rumania, Bulgaria, and that area. These guys don't really fit in anywhere else. Also this would give a place to put the former Yugoslavia disaster area. If cut put them with ... um Russia I guess ... again with EU citizens though.

6. Japan - Like you said. Waning relations with US, growing relations with China.

7. China - Like you said. In game terms China's culture might very well be pretty low since they destroyed all their original cultural buildings during the Cultural Revolution (ouch!).

8. India - Like you said.

9. Iraq - Probably a Monarchy with lots of cash reserves. Give them a big army. Hostile to pretty much everyone. Maybe give them Syria. Also maybe give them Libya.

10. Iran - Same as Iraq kind of. However they are friendly with China and have some trade deals with them. Very hostile to Iraq. Ironically, combine with Iraq if you aren't too interested in the Middle East.

11. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Morroco - These are Arab nations that are mostly friendly to the West. They should not be combined with Iraq and Iran. Make them Monarchies with huge cash reserves (the Saudis). Strained peace with Israel and Iraq, decent relations with everyone else. Valuable trade deals with US, EU, Japan, and increasingly China. Maybe give them Syria - they don't really belong, but it better simulates possible war with Israel.

12. Pakistan - Like you said. If cut, merge them with Iran ... there is somewhat a Iran - Pakistan - China connection ... however Pakistan gets along with the US and EU much better than Iran.

13. Israel - Like you said. If room, give them two cities West Bank and Gaza Strip full of Saudi/Egypt/Jordan citizens still in resistance.

14. Subsahara Africa - Don't really belong together too much, but will have to do. Except for South Africa, these poor guys are a total disaster area. Give them zero money, zero power, near zero infrastructure, and just about every game problem you can think of. They are a real tragedy area.

15. Latin America - Again not really fair to lump them all together, but it has to do. Maybe Mercosur and the Andean Pact will work! Actually since their foreign policies aren't radically different, its ok to put them together. Cuba used to be big enough to deserve seperate mention, but I don't really think so anymore.

16. Mexico - Would be nice to make them their own thing, with most of Central America. If cut, put them with Latin America.

17. Indonesia, Malaysia - Like you said. Big question if Singapore should be put with them, or if their relations with China have improved so much that city should go to China ... prolly put them with Indonesia. Bad relations with China due to big fight over who gets South China Sea. Because of this, put Vietnam and Phillipines in with them too.

18. Australia, New Zealand - Basically Western but would like to somehow be in with Asia. If cut combine with either USA or EU (or Indonesia if some politicians get their way!). Might have to cut them since their foreign policy isn't too different from US and EU, and theres only 16 slots.

19. North Korea - Would be nice to have them seperate since this is such a potential war spot. However, they probably missed their chance and are too poor to attack now. Also talks seem to be going well. If cut, put them with China but with Korean citizens. If really optimistic, put them with South Korea.

20. South Korea - Again would be nice to have them seperate. If cut, put them with USA or Japan (neither of which is a great answer, but again only 16 civs).

21. Taiwan - Would be great to have them seperate since this may be the biggest potential war spot in the world. If you cut them you might actually want to put them with the USA to simulate potential struggle with China. Otherwise put them with China. If seperate give them a ton of money.

22. Chaos or Failed States - This would represent the scary parts of the world where order has pretty much broken down completely. Basically these places are in a modern day dark age. This would be most of Subsahara Africa and parts of Colombia. Possibly also Afganistan and Bosnia. If cut, represent with barbarians instead. (I am not insulting these places! I am just saying they have terrible problems and weak, near nonexistant governments.)

So really with that 16 limit, you are forced to decide which areas are interesting to you and which have to be just lumped together. The biggest choice is whether you want a well defined Middle East or a well defined East Asia.

My choices would probably be:

1. USA + Australia + New Zealand
2. EU
3. Russia + Eastern Europe
4. China
5. India
6. Japan
7. Central Asian Republics
8. Iraq + Iran + Pakistan + Libya
9. Saudi Arabia + Egypt + Jordan + Morocco
10. Israel
11. Subsahara Africa
12. Latin America + Mexico
13. Indonesia + Malaysia + Singapore + Vietnam + Phillipines
14. North Korea
15. South Korea
16. Taiwan
Barbarians = Chaos, Failed States

Best alternate would be to put Central Asia with Russia, and make Iraq + Libya seperate from Iran + Pakistan. My second choice thing to lose would be to combine South Korea with USA + Australia + NZ or with Japan.

No insult or anything was meant by my list or by putting people together ... blame the 16 limit not me please! Also all my comments are just how I understand things, not meant as insults.

Thanks for reading, sorry this was so long, but I think its an interesting thing to try to figure out.

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A modern scenario...what Civs belong? What gov? Etc

A modern scenario...what Civs belong? What gov? Etc

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