Simple patch idea to save units in defecting cities; please support

[nato]

I want to repeat this idea because I think it is good and stands a real good chance of being doable.

This is a simple solution to the problem of losing units in culturally defecting cities. The main problem is when a huge army is destroyed in a rebeling city that you recently conquered.

Currently any units in the city are simply deleted.

Instead, how about kicking them out of the city and to the nearest border? This is attractive because there is already code to do this. This code is used when units are trespassing in another civ's territory while at peace. When asked to be diplomatically removed, the units are kicked out to the nearest border.

How about using this already existing code, instead of deleting armies? The units could even be damaged, though that would require more new code so is optional. Maybe only some of the units would make it back, the others deleted.

(I don't pretend to know it is easy to program, but that routine does already exist, so that should be a big help.)

The city would be reconquered, but at least it would still be a setback without lots of units just disappearing.

I apologize for posting this twice, but I think it is a good idea and, best of all, it could actually be done. I might even post it again, just to try to get it heard.

Any support for this idea? If so please respond to help get it heard.

Thank you for reading.

[kimmygibler]

The big problem with this is that is would defeat the purpose of cultural revolts. If the units got kicked to the nearest border, you would just come and take back the city on the next turn. The city would be defenseless. (unless you're willing to give the city a bunch of free defense units) Its not very realistic, but I say keep it the way it is for the sake of the game. Lets face it, this is only a game. It is not realistic to begin with so I say we should take game balance over realism all the time.

[zipnar]

if all the booted units are reduced to 1hp they couldn't immediatly re-attack.

OR

an army stationed in a city means it can't dispose you no-way/no-how no matter what

i really like my army idea haha...i just thought of it as i was typing the first part. would make armies worth the 3 units + great wonder you spend to make them.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by nato
Currently any units in the city are simply deleted.´

Good. They shouldnt change it.

If you havent prepard yourself enough to avoid above things from happening (and it IS possible to do that), then you should pay the ultimate price.

Instead, how about kicking them out of the city and to the nearest border?

I dont like it. Then one just go right back in and easily reconquer that weakly or non-defended city all over again. It would work inflationary one the whole concept of cultural power.

[nato]

kimmygibler - I acknowledged this in my post, it is a good point. That is why I gave the option of damaging the units or even deleting some, say half.

As far as I can tell, the AI cities automatically get a free defender as it is. Maybe increase this to two.

I would really find this preferable to the way it is now. As it is, this and stack movement basically make me not want to play at all.

I agree with game balance, at least up to a point. Obviously there has to be some realism though ... but I am not motivated by realism. I am motivated by fun and balance moreso. I just really don't think it is good game balance to have whole armies destroyed due to rebellion. I think my solution is a better balance.

Or at least more fun. Just my vote.

[nato]

I was not so worried about the reconquest problem, because armies that keep bouncing back to the border aren't going anywhere.

However, perhaps using the diplomatic code that transfers workers to your capitol during trading could be used ... thus armies could be sent back to your capitol. I prefer my original border idea, since it makes a lot more sense, but just a possibility.

[kimmygibler]

I think a good solution would be if we knew specifically what caused a city to revolt. If it was possible to determine how many units you needed in the city, or what the chances were of revolt there would be fewer surprises. As it is, there are too many shocking revolts were a size 6 city will overthrow about 10 tanks. We need to know what causes this to happen, and what the calculations are.

[Kolyana]

Originally posted by kimmygibler
The big problem with this is that is would defeat the purpose of cultural revolts. If the units got kicked to the nearest border, you would just come and take back the city on the next turn. The city would be defenseless. (unless you're willing to give the city a bunch of free defense units) Its not very realistic, but I say keep it the way it is for the sake of the game. Lets face it, this is only a game. It is not realistic to begin with so I say we should take game balance over realism all the time.

Codswallop

If military units are destroyed, then one assumes something destroyed them, right? Or are we meant to believe the rather incredulous angle that the military revolted also?

Let the city defect, allow some or all of the military to retreat (I could live with some), turn some of the populace into sentry units.

If this is your city, taking it back could destroy improvements. If it belongs to someone else, it could start an international incident. Either way it's more pallitable (sp?) and agreeable game-wise.

Yes, this has my vote.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

So what happens if you take a city adjacent to water and build a battleship, and when it culture flips back to its original nationality, you no longer have any cities capable of supporting sea units?

The "get out of my borders" code never has to deal with a pile of "mixed" units so it's not as easy as just using that existing functionality.

Dan

[Stryfe]

I guess there are 'measures' that prevent cities from revolting, but they are unrealistically difficult on higher difficulty levels. I really don't know what to say about events where



size 6 cities defeat 24 units of mech. infantry and modern armor.


I think it says everything for itself. The city should have been razed to the ground by the vastly superior force represented by the military stationed there.

[Venger]

How about y'all fix the real problem, cultural defection in cities that have large numbers of military units.

How about you REALLY fix it and create a cultural defection switch? People who wear cotton lined panties can keep it on, and people who want something approaching a reality that may exist in this universe can turn it off...

Venger

[Stryfe]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
So what happens if you take a city adjacent to water and build a battleship, and when it culture flips back to its original nationality, you no longer have any cities capable of supporting sea units?

The "get out of my borders" code never has to deal with a pile of "mixed" units so it's not as easy as just using that existing functionality.

Dan

If the code only moves the units outside of the borders, then there is no problem. This is only a problem if the units are moved into the capital....and I've seen plenty of AI civs with battleships moving about despite having lost all of their coastal cities.

[Kolyana]

Dan, destroy ships and planes ... they've never counted as defending units. C'mon, you know that.

Now, I've seen the AI units mystically teleported *MANY* squares once prompted to get out of my land, so I'm sure you could do the same under cultural circumstances, too.

Sorry, I respect you and your position and everything, but your answer was a little ... lame?

[Falconius]

nato, I agree with you 110%.

The cultural switchover bull is the game's worst aspect. There's this crazy catch-22 of how many units to move in to keep the city, but how many can I afford to lose if it flips anyway.

Cultural assimilation, in real life, only works over a great deal of time. Our troops in Afghanistan aren't going to flip-flop just because someone hands them a copy of the Koran. Such indoctrination would take years.

Something needs to be done to lessen the disaster of losing your entire army to a non-military force.

And for those anti-realists who reply, "It's not supposed to be realistic, it's supposed to be fun," well, guess what, it ain't fun either.

[Code Monkey]

There is a huge problem with people's understanding of the game mechanics regarding city defection.

As best I can tell, a city cannot defect back to the motherland while there are resisters.
As best I can tell, the only thing more units do is speed up the rate of quelling resisters.
As best I can tell, once you've put down the resistance, the number of units garrisoned has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a city defects back to the motherland.
As best I can tell, the chance of a quelled city revolting are increased several fold so long as there is any of the motherland's cultural borders butting up against that cities.

Conclusion: Don't garrison more than two units in any city while you're taking it and keep on moving. There is no benefit to putting down resistance while you are actively at war with the parent country because it just introduces the possibility of that city defecting. There is no reason to garrison heavily if you're on the offensive because if that city does defect you'll be out a bunch of units. I've stuck by these rules and I rarely lose a city to defection, I never lose more than a handful of units, and I don't see the problem.

This is another fine example of "I'm not going to learn how to play the game, I'm going to demand they change the game to play how I do!"