the civ3 game is already calculated before you make your moves

[Qnuc.dk]

There's an interesting debate going on here
It's about game calculation and randomness

It seems like the game result is presettet.
There's is no luck





alt.games.civ3

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=da&threadm=vm1P7.14266%24Sk6.103900%40NewsReader&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Dda%26group%3Dalt.games.civ3

[G.A]

No. Reload game, and go the other way. You`ll find that it`s different

[ScottVib]

This has been brought up several times. Firaxis has fixed the seed in saved games. The result is that whenever you do the exact same moves in a saved game you'll get the exact same results as the first time you do it. This was done for two reasons first because it makes it easier while testing (much easier to reproduce bugs this way); and also to defeat those insidious people who like to save, fight a battle, lose, go back to the same game and fight the battle again, repeating the process until they win. Now if you do this you will be beating your head against the wall, since the seed is fixed the outcome will always be exactly the same, assuming you have done the exact same things each time. The only way to do beat this is to force the game into a situation where it has to generate a different random seed.

Hope this helps.

[Dis]

I have noticed that you have to do several things different to change the seeding. just moving units out of order hasn't worked for me. I get the same result (yes I refuse to lose calvary to a spearman on flat ground- so I reload only if he dies- usually they retreat which is good).

[Jaybe]

Nonsense

Only the "dice rolls" have been predetermined. It is up to you to do the right thing (combat etc.) at the right time. The deck is not "stacked" as you imply.

And every time you restart the program, the random numbers are reseeded. It is a GOOD thing that you cannot just reload your in-progress game to try get a 'better' result. There are plenty of ways to 'cheat' as it is.

[Moraelin]

Let me tell you a story. (And, no, for a change it's not Anti-Civ3.)

One of my friends was playing Panzer General. Like this: Save. Attack. Reload. Save again. Attack again. Reload again. 10 times in a row for each and every single attack. He wouldn't even reload only if he lost. He'd reload if his unit took more than 1 point of damage. (Out of 10..13 points, depending on experience.) He was proud of it.

If you ask me, FFS, just use an old fashioned cheat already if you need that.

Not sure if it's actually needed that Firaxis tries to control cheats, though. I mean, there's no MP anyway, and even in MP, the server could do consistency checks. So why bother? If anyone really wants to cheat in single player, I think it's their own business.

[Qnuc.dk]

But how does it work?

I can't believe that the game calculate all possibilities, this would take a large amount of cpu. It must be smarter to only calculate when needed, for maximizing the game speed porpuse.

Is there some auto saving going on for every step we take?

[Cian McGuire]

It's not fixed from the beginning- just from turn to turn.

Don't like the outcome of a battle? Don't think that that barbarian attack from a hut is kosher? Wait a turn, then redo whatever you did- the number's will change.

[kimmygibler]

"It seems like the game result is presettet.
There's is no luck"

duh... Even if it were all preset, you'd still be relying on luck...

=|

[docken]

I personally think the seed idea was a bit over zealous. If people want to cheat in a single player game, hooray for them. In fact if the seed didn't exist, we would never have to worry about all those "WTF? my elite tank lost to conscript warrior in grassland!?!? I hate Civ 3 and Firaxis/Inforgrames/Associated partners" threads which is actually worth it IMO.

[Hurry]

Cian McGuire wrote:

Don't like the outcome of a battle? Don't think that that barbarian attack from a hut is kosher? Wait a turn, then redo whatever you did- the number's will change.

Not true. A new round does nothing to change the random seed. This can easily be tested in the early game, when really nothing happens between the rounds. Unless a random number is needed during the enemies turn, your outcome will always be the same, even if you waited several turns. However, as soon as a random number is needed (the same number which decided the hut was filled with barbs), you will get the next "die roll" when you tip the hut, and thus, results can be different. But it has nothing to do with the new turn.

[Expatriate]

Originally posted by Qnuc.dk
But how does it work?

I can't believe that the game calculate all possibilities, this would take a large amount of cpu. It must be smarter to only calculate when needed, for maximizing the game speed porpuse.

Is there some auto saving going on for every step we take?

It doesnt have to precalc anything. What happens is basically that the game has a number of "prerolled" random numbers ready for use. Everytime it needs a random number for a battle or to see what you get from a goody hut it just takes the first number from tose stored. To test a bit I saved a game just after building my intelligence agency and then made one try at planting a spy in each of the other nations in the order they were listed. Tries number 1,2 and 4 were succesfull. I then I reloaded and tried them all again, but in random order. Again tried number 1,2 and 4 were succesfull and the rest failed, but this time it was 3 different nations I succeded with because I did things in another order.

[Moraelin]

Warning: Long Technical Post (TM) ahead.

I'll simplify things a bit, so it doesn't get to be a maths lesson too. For starters I'll ignore terrain modifiers and stuff, and assume that everything is between units whose attack and defense is 8. (So everything is an 8 sided die roll.)

ANY random number generator in ANY game is in fact a series of pre-determined numbers, that the game advances through. (Well, not really, the list doesn't exist from the beginning, but due to the algorithm the 10'th number is determined before you even got the 1'st. So it kind of acts like a pre-determined list.) I'll write some numbers and put in brackets the one that will be taken next.

In the beginning it looks, let's say, like this:

(2) 7 1 5 7 4 6 2 ...

Let's say my conscript rifleman attacks a conscript something else. The first pair of numbers 2 and 7 mean I lose the first round (the opponent rolled higher), the second pair 1 and 5 mean I lose the second too, and my rifleman is dead. Waaah. Now the pointer advanced four positions and the list now looks like:

2 7 1 5 (7) 4 6 2 ...

In most other games, the list is not re-positioned when I reload. So I reload the game, and the list now still looks like:

2 7 1 5 (7) 4 6 2 ...

So I attack again. This time, the first round goes 7 and 4 for me, and the second round is 6 and 2 for me, so I win and my rifleman didn't even take a scratch. Yay! I'm so great! I'm the greatest general of all time!

Well, not really, but I can advance through the random list with save-reload until I stumble upon a sequence that's good for me. That's something that IRL generals can't do.

Now enter Firaxis and saving the random seed. I.e., saving the current position in that list. If I saved before the first attack, and then reload, the list's status becomes again what it was in the beginning:

(2) 7 1 5 7 4 6 2 ...

If I attack again, I'll roll 2 vs 7 and 1 vs 5 again, and I'll lose again. Buggrit.

However, I can do something else in the meantime, that uses up a random number. E.g., I can let the enemy attack me instead, in which case he'll get those next few bad rolls from that list. E.g., I can fire a catapult at something, so it's an attack vs defense roll that uses two of those numbers, so now it's:

2 7 (1) 5 7 4 6 2 ...

If I attack NOW, I'll pick an 1 vs 5 the first round, but 7 vs 4 in the second and 6 vs 2 in the third. My rifleman now took one point of damage, but won the battle. Yay! I'm a great general after all!

Also, later in the game, advancing a turn means advancing through a LOT of random numbers in that list. There are pollution dice rolls, culture dice rolls, and even the AI decisions seem to have a lot of random numbers in them. After that turn, I'm so far down that list from where I started, that it's a new list for any practical purpose.

[Hurry]

Thanks Moraelin for your insights. You make your point very clear. Now, by testing different combinations of attack, one could in theory detemine the actual die rolls.

As you say, it´s easy to figure out if the die roll was in your favour or against, but there must certainly be more to it than just win or lose. I´ll take your numbers as an example: (2) 7 1 5 7 4 6 2.

So, the first roll is 2 against 7, which is about 28% chance of winning. 100%-28%=72%, so if you have at least 72% chance of winning the round, you will win, otherwise lose. For example, a Cavalry (att 6) would score a hit on a Warrior (def 1), but be wounded if it attacked a Hoplite or anything better than that (def 3).

By changing the units and recording the win/lose-scheme, you could determine the die rolls. I will do some testing later and post my experiences.

[DATarbell]

To further complicate things, there may even be multiple "random number queues" in operation (e.g., one for resolution of goody huts, another for resolution of attacks, another for resolution of defenses, another for resolution of resource discoveries, et cetera).