Civ3 - a one time bit

[korn469]

to me i think civ3 forgot some of the fundamentals

i completely understand the logic of getting rid of caravans, they wanted to simply the trade menu, it all goes back to Sid's rule of complexity doesn't mean depth...however being able to trade units, or station your units in enemy cities, or being able to ask two warring factions are not cumbersome things that add complexity without adding depth, it was decisions like those that makes me question some of the choices they made for civ3

about EU being pretty good, to begin so was Civ2
i have also heard that EU2 is only a challenge if you play as the weakest minor powers in the game
and right now i am kinda playing devils advocate with you...but in all seriousness, while i do find that civ3 is tedius (and certainly not just from moving units around, it is more of a shortage of interesting choices to make)

i know you said that u liked SE4, but don't you find it terribly tedius? that is why i stopped playing it, too much of the samething without any added spice...its like eating bread and water all throughout the game, to me i find more enjoyment in designing the units than in churning them out with nothing to do with them except attack

[korn469]

well we have yet to see the level of post game support firaxis provides for Civ3 although i think it will be better than the gaming industry average, but certainly not the outstanding level of post game support provided by both paradox and malfador...although i could really care less if a company is a bunch of stuck up ass holes as long as they put out patches which address the issues with the game, and i would far rather a company to work on patches than to chat with the fans or make useless post on a forum like this

although addressing real concerns like the scenario letter from the modding community is a priority in post game support, but a simple note, like "message recieved we're working on it now" would satisfy me

[Fidel]

Originally posted by korn469

although addressing real concerns like the scenario letter from the modding community is a priority in post game support, but a simple note, like "message recieved we're working on it now" would satisfy me

got any posts like that in civ3/help forum?

[korn469]

jeff has mailed back that they have gotten the bug lists so far...this week will tell if they just recieved them or they really got them

[yin26]

so the difference is in the attitude of the companies. frankly, i do not give a toss about their attitude, i am more interested in the end product.

Yes, well it's the "They like bugs in the games" and "Let's be quiet while a gamer is sued in our name" and "Screw what's actually in the LE" attitude that seems to get ... ahem ... SOME people here in a tizzy.

[Libertarian]

No one likes bugs in the game. The bugs have been documented, reported, and are being fixed. A gamer is not being sued; a copyright infringer was told to cease and desist. As for the LE, I feel like they have a valid complaint. Which complaint, unfortunately, they've handled for the most part like nine-year-olds. Have you ever been on the other side of a customer complaint? If someone approaches you with genuine civility and charm, you'll go out of your way to help them. But if someone attacks you, you will raise your fist to defend yourself. That's human nature the world over.

Gah. And people say the AI can't negotiate.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Have you ever been on the other side of a customer complaint? If someone approaches you with genuine civility and charm, you'll go out of your way to help them. But if someone attacks you, you will raise your fist to defend yourself. That's human nature the world over.

the only language PR depts understand is that of a brute force, threat of a litigation or massive public disgrace.
u work for PR & customer's complaints?

[Libertarian]

I have. And when I did, I was a person, not a department. Maybe that was the key. Some people saw me as an institution; others as a human. I dealt very well with the latter, and gave the former as hard a time as I could.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Libertarian
I dealt very well with the latter, and gave the former as hard a time as I could.

Well, I guess I would sack you the very minute you start making such differentiations.

[Libertarian]

Um, the "differentiation" was made by you. You decided that I was a department, and not a person. So I treated you the way a department would treat you.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Um, the "differentiation" was made by you. You decided that I was a department, and not a person. So I treated you the way a department would treat you.

i am sorry for the bad time you had there. but, um, once you switch from monarchy or communism into republic/democracy and start working at customer's complaints/help dept, you are supposed to take any and all of the crap they throw at you. simple as that. if they want a philosopher or a subtly sarcastic-yet-witty employee they would write out a job position stating those qualities as preferred. no. they want anyone who will listen to customers' BS for about a year then quit....

[Libertarian]

You're probably right, LaRusso! I surrender to your superior argument.

Now, where did I put that damn note from the doctor?

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Libertarian

Now, where did I put that damn note from the doctor?

[Ludwig]

I wanted to comment on the "micromanagement" theme that Venger addresses here and that many have responded to.

I've been of two minds about the entire issue.

Naturally, I see and understand the point about tedium. Workers vs. public works? Gosh, who would choose to move units around - isn't that the natural thought?

But for a long, long time I've tried to decide why CivII and CivIII are better games than CtP and CtP2. And a lot of people point to the future techs or the lawyer/corporation/televangelist units or the underwater/space cities and say, "THAT is the problem. It is an abomination!" - and I'm sure that these things are part of it.

But I for one think that one of the problems with the CtP system is that there just isn't enough to do.

There's more of a warm glow of self-satisfaction associated with the Civ system, for me, precisely because it's a little bit more of a pain in the butt. More of a feeling of accomplishment when my first railroads are completed, for example [as lame a concept as feelings of accomplishment in a GAME are, hey - I'm a geek, I get to feel these things]. I for one miss caravans, in retrospect, even though I use to hate them and rage about how it wouldn't take that long to ship something from Rome to Alexandria.

CivII was more immersive than CtP in part because you had to concentrate on it. Reflexively, people will tell you that they don't like to have to concentrate, that it's a pain, that the game should do it for them - but on some level the majority seem to have preferred the game that requires greater attention.

CtP2 went all-out with mayors, with cumulative working of tiles [you don't even have to place citizens any more, they just work all the tiles at once and do some math], kept its vaunted public works and abstracted caravans system - and just about everyone who bought it pronounced it a bore, and the game sold so poorly Activision can't afford to support it.

We have to acknowledge that, psychology being what it is, sometimes we really don't know what it is that makes us like the games that we like. The graveyards are full of game companies that made the old Avalon Hill / SPI mistake and tried to build games by taking public polls. I know that the entire process of game design today is more interactive, because of the internet, and on the whole that gamer empowerment is a great development. I'm just not entirely sure that gamer surveys can substitute for inspired designer work, and I'd hate to see the basic CivIII system changed in ways that won't have the effect people are hoping it might.

[Libertarian]

Good insight, Ludwig. There are automated systems available, but people complain that those systems don't read their minds. Civ is definitely a thinking person's game.