Mutual Protection Pacts and the domino effect

[xane]

Firstly, say I have a Mutual Protection Pact with two civilizations who then declare War, which one would I go with ?

I would also like to be able to not honour a MPP, the consequence in reputation could be worse than declaring War, but at least I'd like the option.

Furthermore, say I have an MPP with one civilization who then has an MPP with third, who then goes to War, this creates a domino effect of dragging the entire world into the conflict.

You can even envisage "circles" of MPPs dragging everyone into one side or another in a fight.

Take a complex scenario: I have MPPs with the French and Germans, the French have an MPP with the Persians, the Germans with the Egyptians. Say the Persians declare War on the Egyptians, so the French side with the Persians and the Germans with the Egyptians, where does that leave me ?

And why can a civilization I have an MPP with then put a Trade Embargo on me ? And why can't Trade Embargoes be recinded with an appropriate loss of reputation, surely money speaks louder than homour ? One of the most frustrating things is when I declare War on someone through some circumstance and they hurry off and get Trade Embargos with everyone against me, even though the War is over in two turns, I have effects lasting another 18 ?!

[quinalla]

If you have a MPP say with Germany and France and they attack each other, you will side with whoever gets attacked in their own territory first. For example, Germany is in French territory and destroys improvements, you will side with France. If the first fight breaks out in neutral territory (any territory that is not within the cultural borders of either civ) you will not join in, not until the fight moves to one of the territories. This is useful to know when an AI declares war on you, let them hit you in your territory first, so that any MPP that civs have with both of you will go your way, then go in and attack their cities. I hope this helps!

-quinalla

[Wrong_shui]

1.You will side with whoever has to defend in their own territory first

2.Some MPP cancel out in complex situations

[Jaybe]

Xane, you don't have to worry about who. Your advisor will TELL you who you are at war with.

You only have to worry about world war ramifications when you get into one -- don't worry too much though, because it can be a natural order of things for a while. Then later, after things have shaken themselves out, you may find that there are much fewer (if any) MPPs.

[VoodooChild]

Ever heard of World War I ? MMPs dragged every european power into what was basically a civil war.

[Dhaeman]

Bleh

The trade embargoes and all were great ideas but all the alliances and friendships seem to fake and temporary. In civ2, before you got too powerful and everyone hated you for that reason, your alliances meant something. It didn't last a few years, it let you go through their territory without signing a right of passage agreement as well. And I also have never understood how if you are close friends with 2 certain nations how they will ask for your arm and leg before resigning a mutural protection pact. It would be nice to have real allies in the game...not this temporary stuff in Civ3.

[G.A]

Though the AI`s weird obsession with signing MPPs with just about everyone leads to some easy wins for human in the games, that look like lost - in my last one 5 AIs, who survived until Nationalism couldn`t stop a war for over 300 years!!! From the 1700 to 2040 no AI civ was at peace with everyone for a single turn! So, they spent all that time on Communism, allowing me an easy win with 6 cities, cause I managed to not get at war with anyone

[samsmithnz]

Yeh i agree. They are called world wars, and i think they make the game interesting. Nothing worse than a peaceful world where everyone likes each other!!!

[fanatic civver]

>I would also like to be able to not honour a MPP

You do have that option - dont sign a MPP in the first place! A peace treaty will always suffice.

I agree with trade embargo stuff.

In reply to Dhaeman:

I feel in the opposite way - in civ2 alliances meant nothing because as soon as you got too powerful, all the civs ganged up on you, and when you signed an alliance they just cancelled it the next time you spoke to them even if it was obviously not in their best interests. Alliances and peace treaties in civ2 sucked and meant nothing.

Civ 3 is a lot better IMO. The AI is committed to its agreements for at least 20 turns, so no more of this BS sign alliance and then they contact you to cancel it 5 turns later. AI's of equal size often sign MPP's for nothing with you at regent and monarch at least, and when you are both at war the AI usually lets the MPP last longer. Anyway, the AI usually asks for a small gold donation to keep the MPP alive, which is nothing in the late game.

Also, AI's don't go super aggressive to you when you get too big. They just demand more for their luxuries and protection pacts - as they should because luxuries are worth a lot more to a larger emire than a smaller empire, and when going to war a larger empire is much more likely to reap the rewards of success in the war than a smaller empire.

I do realise what you mean about feeling like you dont have "real allies". However I get the feeling that if a leader has been "gracious" to me over the past 2000 years then I feel as if he/she is a real ally even if we are not in a MPP. You can usually get these powers to sign an alliance vs such and such when you go to war, if you offer them sufficient compensation And again, that lasts for 20 turns, so no silly AI stopping the deal halfway through, unless the other civ pays lots of money

[Seneca]

Dragging this thread up, since I'm stuck in a rather horrible domino effect.

Peace between everyone until I discover steam, and want to build railways - not much coal on the map, and none in my territory, so I declare war on the English with the very limited aim of getting the two cities I need to secure my coal supply. English are way behind in tech, easy, quick victory, I thought.

The Russians join in on the English side, which isn't problematic, as they're miles away. But after I've beaten up the English and got the cities I wanted, the Russians still refuse to acknowledge my envoy. They sign a MPP with the Germans. I sign an MPP with the Americans. I make peace with the Russians eventually, but while the Germans are refusing my envoy they drag the English back in. Who invite the Persians. So I invite the Aztecs. Make peace with the English, but a few turns later they come straight back in on the side of the Germans. Bizarrely, the Russians now declare war on the English.

And so it's been going on, turn after turn - HELP!!

I'm more or less fighting them all off, and on the whole gaining territory, but I'm a Republic whose citizens are starting to go mental with war weariness, and I need a break! Is there any way to break the cycle?

btw, I'm not playing with a patch, since my game kept crashing with the latest one - is this something that's a little more reasonable in later patches?

[KrazyHorse]

Papa Oppenheimer and 10 megatons worth of his best friends ought to do the trick.

[notyoueither]

You need to make peace with all at roughly the same time. OR...

Decide who the biggest impediment to peace is (The Target). Make peace with one of his significant neighbors. Bribe that neighbor into an Alliance against the target.

Make peace with the next most likely prospect. Bribe them into an Alliance against the target. Repeat the process until the whole world is at war with the target. Wait 20 turns, nullify the alliances, make peace with the target.

It is best to avoid MPPs period. Never use one to draw someone into a hot war. Use alliances instead.

Also, if WW is creeping up, avoid offensive action into enemy territory. Focus on defending the realm and avoid the loss of units until you can make peace. Offensive action and unit loss will increase WW AFAIK. Whatever you do, don't raze any cities.

BTW. Is WW going down when you make peace with one of the bad guys? It should, but that may have come in a patch.

[Seneca]

Trouble is, it's only very rarely any of the civs will acknowledge my envoy, so I can't really pick and choose who I make peace with.

[notyoueither]

Once a civ will acknowledge your envoy they will still acknowledge at a later date. Wait until more of them will acknowledge your envoy and make peace all at once, or go for plan B.

Try it, you might be surprised how cheap an alliance with civ X against their ally civ Y can be. Of course it might be really expensive too, or they may say 'no way' (you don't have enough for them to possibly consider it).

[Inverse Icarus]

yea. if you notice, MPPs are used and aused for a while but then they fade away, as in real life.