German release/translation gaff

[Nevs23]

I don't want to waste any words.


INFOGRAMES!!!




Nevs23 (Zarathustra)

[yin26]

This only makes me even more happy I didn't buy Civ3. It's a rookie effort backed by a P.O.S. publisher. End of story. The *only* thing going for Civ3 is the fans who will nourish it into something worth playing. If this is the corporate message, screw 'em.

I'm now playing Space Empires 4 and having a much better time than I ever did with Civ3. Well, off to play a real game by a group of people who actually pulled their heads out.

[TCO]

Originally posted by yin26
This only makes me even more happy I didn't buy Civ3. It's a rookie effort backed by a P.O.S. publisher. End of story. The *only* thing going for Civ3 is the fans who will nourish it into something worth playing. If this is the corporate message, screw 'em.

I'm now playing Space Empires 4 and having a much better time than I ever did with Civ3. Well, off to play a real game by a group of people who actually pulled their heads out.

Yin,

1. Why is the "fan treatment" so important to you. Why not just pay for what you like?

2. I thought you said you would buy it after playing it when that store owner lent it to you.

[yin26]

I'd say when a game is already in pretty tip-top shape, I don't much care about how the fans interact with the developer / publisher. I mean, the game is good already, right?

In the case of Civ3, however, I don't feel the game is good, in part because a clearly unfinished product was put on the shelves. This means that indications of how fans are treated likely serve as signs regarding how well the patches and expansions will be handled.

At this point, the message is clear: "Dear Fans: Please bend over as we think we can squeeze a few more pints from your backside."

So, fan treatment tells me a lot about the future of this incomplete game. This is also why I took the game back to my computer guy and rather reluctantly said: 'Thanks but no thanks.' However, I promptly bought a local game I had been meaning to play, so no harm no foul.

However, I do not mean to waste people's time here with my rantings, and I only stopped by this particular thread because I found Infogrames' attitude to be appallingly disgusting and in line with what I had predicted would be Civ3's future.

I warn you now, Civ3 if it stays this course will NEVER reach the longevity we saw with Civ2. Never.

[korn469]

GP

I agree that they should have sent a letter or called instead of going to a lawyer first. I really doubt that this guy will have to pay the $500. That is just Infogrames trying to be heavyhanded. The guy should just write back and say that he will shut the project down if Infogrames stops the lawyer. After that he should just shut the project down and ignore any lawyer threats. Noones going to come after him for $500. And they don't have a case.

you forget this is germany and their legal system is different from the one in the us

check out this story about something called Abmahnung, which means that pretty much any lawfirm in germany can write a cease and disist letter on infogrames "behalf" and expect payment, while this doesn't seem to apply in this case if infogrames want to be asses of themselves then they could get the 500 dollars i'm sure

but what happened to customer service? piss off the fans when you released a perfect game, and it can hurt sells, piss off the fans when you released a good, but unfortunantly unfinished game and it can kill sells...it just seems that the best way to gain loyal customers is to practice good pr/customer service

and without some big improvements in the patch for the scenario editor i think that yin is right about civ3's long term outlook

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by yin26
However, I do not mean to waste people's time here with my rantings...

Well, you certainly do.

[yin26]

Unlike your troll, I suppose? How many threads have I started in the last two weeks? Pull *your* head out, please.

[Bakunine]

Originally posted by yin26

I'm now playing Space Empires 4 and having a much better time than I ever did with Civ3.

I also have that one.

But i stopped playing some months ago. Lack of time and also a bit dissapointed with the AI and some other stuff. But i hanged around shrapnel forun and i know how productive malfador with patchs and fans with mods and AI scripts are worth. I supoose there must been tons of patchs since 8 or 9 months ago.

So my question is:

Is SE4 really a challenge as single player now? Any advice in mods to aplly to it after patching?

Tks.

[yin26]

Well, I'll answer the SE4 question to show what a community can do when a *real* company releases a product:

There have been over the last 8 to 9 months some simply amazing leaps made by fans in shipsets and AI. I only know this because I researched the forums there and was just floored by all the cool stuff. Patch 1.46 also is out.

SE4 was, simply put, DESIGNED to be modded, and the fans have just taken the ball and run with it! Also, the designer's seemed very attententive to the fans' input for patches. As a result, the forum there is full of a lot of positive, productive threads.

As for how much the SP AI has improved, I'm not a good person to ask since I am just learning the game. But I often see the vets over there referring to this and that mod as having 'tough AI' etc.

[wervdon]

I don't know what the relation between firaxis/infogrames is, but id find it highly amusing if they dumped them for their next title ;P Its not like they couldn't get just about any publisher they want, assuming they are the ones who hold all the copyrights and infogrames doesn't own all their stock Course business isnt my speciality, so I could bt totally off on how those things work. It does clearly seem to be a case of a good developer, really lousy publisher though.

As for SE4, its good, my problem with it though was always that stellar manipulation (especially opening/closing wormholes) seemed to blow the ai's mind. You could close all of its wormholes off and it'd just sit there until you reopened them later to attack I havent played the newer versions though or any mods. Ill agree its the most moddable game out there though by far

[yin26]

I always feel that the company a developer chooses to publish the game says an awful lot about the developer. By the way, thanks for heads up about the wormhole thing. Don't know if that has been fixed, but I certainly won't use that tactic if the AI can't cope with it.

[Bakunine]

Thanks for the feedback Yin26 and wervdon.

Patch 1.46!!! WOW. Last time i was there it was on patch 1.1x (can't remenber last number).

[korn469]

yin26

malfador isn't exactly a real company
but i understand what you are trying to say, but they have a good deal of creative control over their game and they certainly aren't out to get rich off of it, while we certainly know that infogrames is trying to make a buck (a quick one at that) off of it

now what i wonder is this
put yourself in infogrames position

you have just bought a smaller company with a very profittable franchise...then you manage to sign a deal with the people behind the game...then their independent company seems to be having major troubles, one of their best and brightest leaves with a bunch of other key people, and the entire development process goes to hell

christmas rolls around, you can either release the game now in an unfinished but workable state, or miss the holiday season and spend an extra four to six months in development of a game that is already over budget and late...what do u do? take the quick buck or ensure the game protects the long term prospects of the franchise

also for civ4 who do u think firaxis will contract to make the game? will it go back to sid and firaxis or will it go with another company?

[yin26]

Yes, I think the 'company' aspect needs to die in favor of more direct sales via on-line transactions. Cut out these publisher hacks and we might really see 'the good old days' of game making come back better than ever. I think Firaxis sees just a few dollars on each game sold. Imagine them being able to sell it for even $10/20 dollars direct. My God, everybody with a fast enough Internet connection (or willing to pay a little S&H) would get an awesome game at a rock-bottom price and Firaxis would make a whole lot more money *and* have complete control over release/patch schedules. As more and more people get faster Net connections, I honestly believe this will be the future of gaming.

As for what I would have done as Infogrames:

I would have tried for both -- Christmas sales AND a solid product, since that is clearly the best thing for the short and the long term success of all people involved. For all I know, they tried that with Firaxis and the answer was either A) 'We can do it by x-mas, no worries' or B) 'We'll have some problems with that but can release something that's at least playable.'

A) I suppose if they took Firaxis' word and found out only too late that the game was still a few months short, I'd gather up an independent test group and see just how 'unfinished' they feel it is. If really bad, I'd make the decision to delay the game 'in the name of quality' knowing full well that a game like Civ3 does NOT need Christmas to help it sell. In fact, a good number of the best selling games in history were NOT released at x-mas.

B) This is where the brass balls come in. Firaxis tells you that basically only an unfinished product will make the deadline. At this point, you have to push and prod and 'lead' Firaxis toward making a solid product. Of course, publishers maybe have no pull in that regard. All they can say is: 'You signed the contract. Better have the Gold Master to us by October.'

Bottom line is that a successful Civ3 would make both companies a lot of money and a lot of fans very happy. In my opinion, releasing the game 4 months too early may well have jeopardized the long-term money-making ability of this product as the negative word has indeed spread. And remember: The trickles of sales coming in during the Spring at $30 each could have been easily overcome by a flood of sustained sales from Spring at $50 each.

My suspicion is that Infogrames wanted to boost their quarterly and year-end profile. I think they said: 'Well, long-term sales or no, we'll make our money NOW. Hell, we've got plenty of games going and don't really need Civ3 to be a huge success anyway. Let's make the x-mas window and 2001 financials and hope for a nice surprise next year if Firaxis manages to actually code the complete game ... for the x-pack.'

Well, in my mind, this whole thing greatly reduces Firaxis' image as a competent company. Yes, they'll make their money, but I simply refuse to buy a Sid afterthought. If and when Sid really gets excited about something other than golf, I'll play close attention. But this rookie crew releasing Civ3 has done nothing to help the company, IMO.

[yin26]

By the way, Korn, have you played SE4?