Venger, I feel your pain

[D4everman]

Oh GIVE ME A STINKING BREAK. Yes, I've been at war with the Aztecs for a long time. And kicking their ass. You telling me a democracy doesn't like a successful war? Oh my lord...

I totally agree with you venger. War Weariness is a good idea, but its implementation is screwy. And before anyone says any smartass remars about "go play warcraft" let me explain...I've never played warcraft.

Seriously, I've had two games where war weariness has set in and screwed me. The first time I just figured I made a mistake somehow to allow this to get out of hand....after wahile, at first I was really pissed. But tonight....ugh...

As the Indians I had a powerful and peaceful democracy. I literally had not fought in any war all the way up to 1864! No one declared war on me either! Warlord level, two large continents and a few small islands on a large world. I shared mine with the iroqouis, the chinese, the americans, the japanese and the aztecs. On the other continent...which wasn't discovered until about 1400 or thereabouts...were the french, the germans, the russians and the egyptians.

anyway, I wanted a space victory and it was going to take a lot of micromanaging to get it. I wasn't too far ahead in tech if at all with my rivals. I had to constantly trade or buy tech and resources and it was kind of fun. MPP's came and went, but we were all at peace on my continent. Then the french asked for an MPP. Without thinking I agreed. Suddenly...and I mean within one turn....France started a world war! With so many alliances activated in ONE turn I was literally at war with EVERYONE but France!

wisely, I hit the autosave and declned the MPP. Well, like the chicken**** I am rather. I only agree to MPP's when I think I might need an ally if I'm attacked. Well, a few turns later the germans call me up and for no reason whatsover Bismarck says something like "We've put up with your **** long enogh, blah, blah,blah."

Huh? What the hell was he talking about? I didn't bear it much mind though. I had no coast facing him on his continent and for him to reach me he'd have to come thrrough "the alley". My coastline was protected by a "hook" where the americans (an MPP partner) were and I had loaded it with battleships, ironclads and destroyers. Trust me, it would take a lot of ships to reach me. But Germany made an alliance with the aztecs to get me, and the aztecs were MPP'd with the japanese so a World War started. (all by the stinking Germans! They destroyed the French) Soon, the Russians and the egyptians joined in against me, but the chinese and the iroqouis were with me.

Heres what pisses me off....I had built police stations in ALL of my cities...I had Universal Suffrage...but within three or so turns War Weariness kicks in! Huh? And I was holding my own and managing to take a few cities from the aztecs.

WTF is this citizen saying give peace a chance for? I tried that...they won't talk to me! THEY ATTACKED US! Its ridiculous.

The only thing you can do in the editor is to change the degree of war weariness. Since Republic has low war weariness and, according to the manual, no risk of anarchy, if would follow that if you change Democracy to low war weariness it would solve the problem.

I don't know a lot about dinking around with programming. Sorry, I just don't. (Hey, I'm a mamber of Generation "W"...meaning I was here before "X" and there weren't any computers outside of Star Trek when I was growin' up ) But I'll have to check on that. Still, I think its stupid for a democracy to have such a weakness if the democracy DIDN'T START THE WAR. And saying "You can change your government" doesn't cut it. Why should I be forced to change my preffered government because a warmonger attacked me and we were essenitally winning the combat? The aztecs were done for no matter what. They were too small and weak to withstand a combined assualt from me, the iroquis and the chinese...plus the americans....at once. The japs were tough. (A samuria killed a a tank. Right. A guy with a sword. Against a tank. Uh huh...I suppose it was like a magic sword or a light saber or something ) But they still would have been crushed in time. The only thing keeping me at bay was having to fight the aztecs and keep the japs off balance since Air supremacy doesn't work for the player and they had free reign to bomb the crap outta me.

Hey, people wanted out of the Persian Gulf War, and there are many who adamantly oppose sending in any number of troops to Afghanistan.

Right. and widespread anarchy abounded. Give me a break.

Yes, as realistic as this game can get. Overthrows may symbolize an upset at the polls where those who were in power are voted out and their policies ignored. An abrupt change in a higher-echelon of decision-making will have a few turns of instability, lack of focus, and a general economic downturn. Listen to the polls, man.

then there should be a warning from the Domestic Advisor telling you that WW is taking a toll. and there should be something done about aggressors that won't "talk" to you. If they won't talk, they are essentially saying "We are still going to attack you". Instead of a democracy being held hostage, if that happens, it should be able to continue the fight for a set number of turns until peace can be made.

Now, all of this might be changeable in the editor...as I said I don't know. But it should still be tweaked in the patch.

I'm not even going to go into how the AI's bizarre expansion was a pain in this game...

[barefootbadass]

Uhh, if the other guys start the war war weariness is not a problem for a while or so I understand. Also keep in mind that turns in civ3 are a year at the shortest. It is very realistic in this scale for the populace to get upset if it drags out too long.

[Excelsior]

WTF is this citizen saying give peace a chance for? I tried that...they won't talk to me! THEY ATTACKED US! Its ridiculous.

quote:The only thing you can do in the editor is to change the degree of war weariness. Since Republic has low war weariness and, according to the manual, no risk of anarchy, if would follow that if you change Democracy to low war weariness it would solve the problem.

I don't know a lot about dinking around with programming. Sorry, I just don't. (Hey, I'm a mamber of Generation "W"...meaning I was here before "X" and there weren't any computers outside of Star Trek when I was growin' up ) But I'll have to check on that.

What I meant was that it would eliminate the risk of the Democracy falling into anarchy, not the risk of having cities go into disorder. To change the level of war weariness for a particular government, all you have to do is open up the governments tab in the editor.

Personally, I've never had that problem when I fight a war under Democracy. I've even had cases where my entire empire would spontaneously go into WLT_Ds when someone declared war on me. Did you have a lot of units in enemy territory? The manual says that is an important component in war weariness.

[Raleigh]

I had a democracy game that was very realistic. When I was losing, my population rioted. As soon as I turned the tide, they cheered me.

[Venger]

To have your government fall is just pure bogusness...I was about to ask if it helps to have Universal Suffrage AND police stations, if that will at least keep the government from falling...

Did your government go into anarchy?

Also - there are times the AI just won't talk to you. How are you supposed to combat war weariness then? Also, If I stay at war with a democracy, will it fall too?

There are noble and ignoble aims in war, but I don't trust the game to know the difference I'm afraid.

I did more testing on the save, and if you reduce the war weariness of democracy to the same as republic, the government doesn't fall. I want to know if a combination of US and police will keep a democracy from falling, but without any knowledge of the internal game engine, I just don't know.

I quit playing around and simply made peace with the Aztecs, who I'd been rolling like a whore on a naval base. I immediately had every citizen in the empire happy. We'll see if I can now just declare war all over again and finish what I started. Wouldn't be so important except that I need the damn oil they have...

Of course, I made peace with the French, but not the English, and now that I continue my conflict with them, the MPP is reinvoked the same turn I sign the peace treaty with the French...sigh... not very good depth...

Venger
P.S. You know you're Apolyton big time when you get your name in the header...heh...

[Venger]

Originally posted by Excelsior
Did you have a lot of units in enemy territory? The manual says that is an important component in war weariness.

I didn't - I had like about 5 in enemy territory. When I move into their territory, it doesn't stay their territory for more than one turn...

Venger

[D4everman]

Uhh, if the other guys start the war war weariness is not a problem for a while or so I understand. Also keep in mind that turns in civ3 are a year at the shortest. It is very realistic in this scale for the populace to get upset if it drags out too long.

Ok.....year one: War is declared on me. Up until this point, I've never attacked or fought in a war. The aztecs pillage many improvements, capture a lot of workers and begin seiging my cities.

Year 2: The japs jump in and start bombarding my cities, improvements and units. The aztecs continue to pillage, but since I did have a sizable army I tank rush two of their cities and take them.

Year 3: A few cities go into disorder. The people are saying give peace a chance. I try...none of the attackers will talk. Thus far only a few...a mere handful of my full army...are in enemy territory.

Year 4: 90% or more cities are in disorder. Enemies won't talk. I have no choice. Gotta fight or die...but my lily livered citizens would obvioulsy rather die since the japs just rolled into my empire with a lot of tanks, mech infantry and samurias and continue t bomb me. The aztecs too, although not as effectively.


That makes sense to you? In essence, they win! Because I can't replace my units...simply because they won't TALK! And I'll remind you...I wanted a space victory...not anymore since I can't build anything!

You might think this is realistic because of some time scale thing...but its not fun and thats what counts.

Personally, I've never had that problem when I fight a war under Democracy. I've even had cases where my entire empire would spontaneously go into WLT_Ds when someone declared war on me. Did you have a lot of units in enemy territory? The manual says that is an important component in war weariness.

Probably...but as I said...I had maybe at the most five units in aztecs territory and not that long.

[Excelsior]

Do you have a save game that you could post? I'd like to see if I can figure out what is going wrong. I've never had that much of a problem with war weariness.

[GePap]

No sense

D4everman
Something must be wrong since according to the manual (how often is it wrong?) having war declared on you decreases war weariness. Just an idea, but somewere along the line, did an MPP you have activate when your partner was attacked? If so, then techinically YOU declared war on someone else (whoever that was), which might (again, how this works is unclear) undo the fact that war was declared on you first. Also, you might take the rsik of beginning a revolution and switching to Communism or monarchy. The revolution might take along time (it once did for me) but it may allow you to return to building things.

[D4everman]

I did more testing on the save, and if you reduce the war weariness of democracy to the same as republic, the government doesn't fall. I want to know if a combination of US and police will keep a democracy from falling, but without any knowledge of the internal game engine, I just don't know.

Hmmmm....If I start a new game I'll have to try and make that change. But I hate having to change "the rules" of a game. In this case it warranted however. I get the idea that my foes would have "talked" peace if they knew they couldn't cripple me by not talking. If that bogus tactic were "realistic" the Taliban would just not say anything....the US would implode by December 1st.

I quit playing around and simply made peace with the Aztecs, who I'd been rolling like a whore on a naval base.

Hahahahaha! Now thats funny! I'll have to tell ya about the guy that tried to sneak two hookers on post after 9/11 sometime. (Only my partner kept me from pistol whipping the moron.)

Of course, I made peace with the French, but not the English, and now that I continue my conflict with them, the MPP is reinvoked the same turn I sign the peace treaty with the French...sigh... not very good depth...

Yeah, thats another problem. MPP's keep dragging me into these wars that cripple my democracy even when I don't dp anything. thats why it was stupid for me to at first agree to one with the frnech...and why I did do it with the others I mentioned....WE were on the same continent. anyone could attack anyone else. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer...by having allies I knew I had backup if one or two of them attacked me. Its also why I turned down an MPP with Bismarck after I had turned down the French. They were on the other side of the planet. But being involved in their wars, even in spirit only, would cause me problems.

P.S. You know you're Apolyton big time when you get your name in the header...heh...

Well, you know what Warhol said.....

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by D4everman
Hmmmm....If I start a new game I'll have to try and make that change.

If you change the civ3mod.bic directly the rules will change when you reload the game. If a save is using the default rules, it will take the rules from that file. Thus, you can change the war weariness of Democracy then go back and replay the game without your civilization imploding.

[Xerxes314]

Why don't you just combat war weariness with luxuries and entertainers?

Xerxes

[LRotan]

Going to have to agree big time here. Just finished up a game where I was sitting right in between the Aztecs and the Germans. I was a democracy and couldn't switch governments as all of my cities were metropolises and many many of them would die in the ensuing anarchy. Knew it was just a matter of time before either one of them, or perhaps both, would get a burr in their undies and go postal on me. As it turned out, both did. I didn't have a chance given that four turns into the wars and many riots later, it was three countries, theirs and mine, against one guy...me.

I never go past Monarchy anymore. Not worth it.

LR

[Venger]

Originally posted by Xerxes314
Why don't you just combat war weariness with luxuries and entertainers?

Xerxes

Doesn't work, at least for keeping your Civilization from revolting. I had 70% luxuries, and it still fell. Mind you, all the citizens were happy, and I had WLTPD in nearly every city, but they still revolted.

After loads of experimentation I simply reloaded that turn and made peace. We'll see how it goes. I don't like reloading but consider it justified in this case...

Venger

[Venger]

Originally posted by LRotan

I never go past Monarchy anymore. Not worth it.

LR

Try Republic - during my reload testing, I changed democracy to have Republics war wearniess, and the civ did not revolt. Mind you, I had Universal Suffrage (to the exclusion of every other Civ, hardly universal - I vote for it to be a minor wonder).

Venger