Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mobile Units: Too Good?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Mobile Units: Too Good?

    Yes, this is a rant about combat imbalance, but it has nothing to do with the ongoing debate about "Tank killed by Spearman" scenario.

    As you all know, units with mobility greater than 1 can retreat when they are fighting slow units with only 1 mobility if they are losing. The problem this creates is that it is almost impossible for a slow unit to kill a fast one. For example, Horseman Vs Spearman fortified in a city. While it is unlikely for the Horseman to defeat the Spearman, it is also extremely unlikely for the Horseman to be lost in the attack. What will usually happen is that the Horseman will damage the Spearman, then retreat when its HP gets too low.

    In games I play I don't even bother building Swordsmen or Archers anymore. Horsemen, Knights and Cavalry are simply superior. In my experience, when I attack a fortified town with slow units, I inevitably lose some in the attack. In contrast, I almost never lose fast, mobile units when attacking a town, even when the odds are against me. I have successfully taken cities with Knights, cities that were defended by RIFLEMEN, and not lose a single Knight. Each attacking Knight managed to weaken the Riflemen a little, then retreating, until my last Knight delivered the killing blow. My group of Knights essentially behaved like an ARMY, even though they were not.

    This is also not a freak case, unlike the "Tank killed by Spearman" debate. I have perfected my game to the point where I can build a dozen mobile units, blitz a city, wait a few turns to heal, then blitz the next city. Usually my casualty is minimal, even when the enemy has well fortified defenders. I am afraid that this game will degenerate into a mobile unit rush.

    I would suggest that the combat rules be changed so that the retreat ability of mobile units be less powerful. Perhaps make it such that units can only retreat if they have at least 2 movement remaining. This will make Horsemen and Knights have to wait a turn outside enemy city before attacking, or lose their retreat ability.

    I realize that this change will actually INCREASE the chances that a Tank will be killed by a Spearman, but who cares about that, right?

  • #2
    Just exactly how do you suggest that a spearman would kill a horseman in retreat? That is the entire point of mobility in warfare.
    Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse

    Do It Ourselves

    Comment


    • #3
      To a degree, this is the entire point of mobility. The defender should be building his own horsemen, etc. to counter the attacker.

      Comment


      • #4
        Correct me if i'm wrong, but i was under the impression that even if the defending unit has 1MP, as long as there is a mobile unit stacked with it, the attacking mobile unit can't retreat. Can anyone confirm this?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Osweld
          Just exactly how do you suggest that a spearman would kill a horseman in retreat? That is the entire point of mobility in warfare.
          ARRGGGHHH!!! The entire point of mobility in warfare is NOT to enable retreat. Units have retreated from combat HELL AND GONE before the advent of mobile units. Does it HELP to be able to break contact in retreat? Sure. But the advent of mobility in warfare was NOT to produce the tactical advantage of getting your ass kicked and running away...

          Venger

          Comment


          • #6
            Venger:
            ARRGGGHHH!!! The entire point of mobility in warfare is NOT to enable retreat. Units have retreated from combat HELL AND GONE before the advent of mobile units. Does it HELP to be able to break contact in retreat? Sure. But the advent of mobility in warfare was NOT to produce the tactical advantage of getting your ass kicked and running away...
            I really really hate to disagree with you, Venger, but the Mongols built an entire empire on this technique...

            Likewise with the Mameluks, I believe...
            Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CyberGnu
              Venger:

              I really really hate to disagree with you, Venger, but the Mongols built an entire empire on this technique...

              Likewise with the Mameluks, I believe...
              They built an entire empire on retreating? Or did they build an empire on winning?

              Venger

              Comment


              • #8
                yeah fast units have that great advantage, but the hit and run tactic could be easily countered by artys. Before attacking fast units, softened them up with artys till they have 1 hp left.
                From my experience, any fast units which have 1hp left engaged in combat NEVER retreats, even attacked by slower units.
                If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Venger


                  ARRGGGHHH!!! The entire point of mobility in warfare is NOT to enable retreat. Units have retreated from combat HELL AND GONE before the advent of mobile units. Does it HELP to be able to break contact in retreat? Sure. But the advent of mobility in warfare was NOT to produce the tactical advantage of getting your ass kicked and running away...

                  Venger
                  Retreating does not equal losing (as you can see by looking at mobile units in civ3). The point of horsemen is to be able to move faster then standard infantry - horsemen can move faster then spearmen, which gives the horsemen the ability to decide where to fight - or if to fight.
                  Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse

                  Do It Ourselves

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I agree with both sides an this issue, some mobile units would use something like this (Horse Archers) though they didn't actually engage in combat to do this, they just shot at them then ran away, a very succesful tactic used by the Muslims during the Crusades. However Knights shouldn't do this, as they were generally stupidly brave maniacs who liked charging madly at people and weren't very adept at using their brains. Also withdrawing from battle effectively, even with a movement advantage requires good, well lead troops, not just everyone on a horse can do it.

                    Edit: In reply to the person who posted above me, the point of cavalry is more importantly to add weight to a charge, grant you a height bonus and enamble you to flank enemy units. Retreating is useful, but most often not used as it leads to the infantry being left behind

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Osweld

                      Retreating does not equal losing (as you can see by looking at mobile units in civ3). The point of horsemen is to be able to move faster then standard infantry - horsemen can move faster then spearmen, which gives the horsemen the ability to decide where to fight - or if to fight.
                      Exactly

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Osweld
                        Retreating does not equal losing (as you can see by looking at mobile units in civ3). The point of horsemen is to be able to move faster then standard infantry - horsemen can move faster then spearmen, which gives the horsemen the ability to decide where to fight - or if to fight.
                        Don't get me wrong - it makes TOTAL AND COMPLETE SENSE that a unit with more than one move point left would leave a fight rather than perish. And it IS an advantage for mobile units. And I LIKE how it's used in Civ3.

                        But to say that the ability to retreat from a fight is "the entire point of mobility in warfare" is grievously understated to the point of being just plain wrong.

                        Venger

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Back on point, people

                          The pertinent point of this thread is, how can we as gamers, or the A.I. as gamer stop halley's strategy, espeically if the whole attack happens in one turn, thus not giving the defender the chance to counterattack- since we would have to wait for their turn and they will probalbly be dead. Arty is not the solution until later in the game, so the question is, can i trap those fast bastards in my city. (let me add here that generally, relisticly speaking, using mobile units to storm cities is a dumb thing to do since in narrow streets mobility is negated. I can't think of any real battle [movies don't count] in which mounted kngihts stormed a citadel- they did it on foot. SMAC did this whole thing better, giving inf bonuses over mobile in attacking cities). Impis can, since they move 2 also, and i gues protecting your city with fast units (stupid since much lower def), so again, can anyone think of how my inf or riflemen owuld be able to 'trap' the enemy and counter halley's strategy?
                          If you don't like reality, change it! me
                          "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                          "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                          "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Back on point, people

                            Fight mobility with mobilty. Use strong garrisons with defensive units aswell as offensive units to counter attack any incoming enemies - if you are on the defense, you can use rails and roads to your advantage, aswell.
                            Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse

                            Do It Ourselves

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Question: if you have a stack (more than one) of units in a city that includes at least one fast unit, can this tactic be used? If you have (example) pike and horse in a city, will the pike defend and the horse prevent enemy horse from withdrawing?
                              Rule 37: "There is no 'overkill'. There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload'."
                              http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ 23 Feb 2004

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X