Diplomacy woes never solved

[TheDarkside]

I guess we should never expect AI to ever remotely simulate a human as affirmed by Civ3's diplomacy... but that's only a problem when there's no multiplayer support!

Let's face the facts, despite all the promises and all the corporate reviewers who claim diplomacy AI is finally improved- it's not even close. I probably would'nt notice if you swapped Civ3 diplomacy with Civ2 diplomacy. Just now I was playing as a scientific commercial civ, only have been attacked by one other civ in the course of the game (industrial times now) and everything is going great... everyone is a democracy (oh thats another thing- i wish there was a more diverse choice of governments... not that there many to choose form though ) I've been conducting great trade with 4 other races, theres only one race who is annoyed with me (from the previous time they tried killing me.) So im minding my own business and here comes the Germans, who ive been trading saltpeter with, and who is Polite. What's he want? "Give me the secrets of Industrialization or pay the price". Yeah whatever! Of course I refuse, so he declares war! *sigh* As if its not bad enough for a democracy to do that, over the next few turns he allies EVERYONE against me like I'm harboring some terrorists (keep in mind, ive been one of the most peaceful nations, I am not the wealthiest, largest, most powerful nation by far) yet, all the democracies of the world suddenly decided to declare war on me because I didn't bow to Germany's bullying.


I need to play vs. people!

nonetheless I'm still a loyal Civer. Just need to voice my broken heart,...

[Ballz1998]

Let me ask you something... do you think the human response would be more or less vicious and crippling than the computer response???? :-)

[TheDarkside]

I don't know, I never saw a democracy declare war on another nation because they refused to give them some petty technology or money... have you?

[dainbramaged13]

Yeah, but that would be called reality. this is civ!

anyway, just to provide a contrasting opinion, you need more culture. I do quite well in dimplomacy even though im very agressive because i have a lot of culture.

[Ballz1998]

Well yes I have seen. . .

a democracy declare war on another country for not giving them something. Bin laden attacks US. . US says "Taliban, give us bin laden or else"... They refuse, and the US goes to war. Granted you could argue that the "taliban" attacked the US.

Also, maybe its just survival of the fitest showing itself in the game. The computer sees someone it can annihilate, thus acquiring land and more power... so it does so. You've done it before in your games, haven't you :-). I just did it yesterday. Those poor aztecs had incense and lots of hills and grassland... I said "give me all your cities or else"... needles to say they didn't accept and my republic rolled all over them.

I just don't understand how people complain about the computer doing to them what they have done countless times to the computer. Conquering a puny nation for added power is as good a motive as any. Democracy or not.. the computer is still trying to win in its enviroment. And I'm impressed.

[yin26]

Sounds shoddy to me. Of course, I'm thinking of Europa Universalis here ... a game in which you CAN backstab people or bully them around, but there are built-in consequences.

There don't seem to be any in Civ. That's what's so silly.

[Peterk]

Maybe they just didn't have any other way to get their saltpeter. I mean would you have traded it if they asked you nicely?

I've been in the same shoes with horses, iron and whatever else resource is important in the game.

have the tech + don't have the resource = act of desperation

Don't know how you would defend yourself against this other than setting up a few alliances yourself so that the AI can't turn everyone else against you.

[TheDarkside]

Re: Well yes I have seen. . .

Originally posted by Ballz1998
a democracy declare war on another country for not giving them something. Bin laden attacks US. . US says "Taliban, give us bin laden or else"... They refuse, and the US goes to war. Granted you could argue that the "taliban" attacked the US.

Didnt I say vs. another democracy? And your analogy is far from relevant. The Taliban are allegedly protecting an organization responsible for the worst tragedy to a country... It was provoked. Not only that, the Taliban are reportedly oppressive, primitive and militaristic.

All I ever did was refuse to give Germany a meager technology and all of a sudden I got the world against me! All of us are democracies. If that's realistic to you I'm glad I don't live on your planet.

[introvert]

Originally posted by TheDarkside
I don't know, I never saw a democracy declare war on another nation because they refused to give them some petty technology or money... have you?

Hmmm... let me see.

Ah yes. The USA - against any North American Indian nation you care to name.

The Cherokee [please excuse all my poor spelling] even proved they were an
independent nation in the US Supreme Court [IIRC] and then gold was discovered in their territory. Goodbye Cherokee nation, hello expanded USA.

The Opium wars between Britian and China... China refused to let Britian trade opium into China, so the British went to war over the issue, when it was already a democracy. [late 19th century]

Ancient Athens - as a democracy it was highly aggressive, and was brought down by the pellopenesian wars, during which it had several oppertunities to make peace, but the democratic hawks kept refusing.

[Ballz1998]

Actually. . .

you didn't say vs another democracy. . . but point taken.


Also I would go on for at least two or three pages about how even though the WTC/Pentagon Attack was a horrible event in human history, it most definately is on the low end of the "worst tradegy to happen to a country" ladder, but I'm not about to open that can of worms.

[TheDarkside]

I meant to say vs. another democracy!

[Ballz1998]

How is your culture?

Compared to the Civ that attacked you, were you an inferior culture about even or superior? I would tend to think you must have been either even or inferior, because so far noone has declared war on me when I have a great culture rating

[introvert]

Originally posted by TheDarkside
I meant to say vs. another democracy!

USA vs Great Britian, War of 1812.

Britian refused to leave the New World, and America tried to kick them out.

The USA has also been instrumental in the over throw of several democratically elected governments because they were anti-American. Not a war admitedly, but close.

Unfortunitly I can't think of any other modern democracies as aggressive as the USA...

The Roman Republic rolled over Greece, when some of those cities would have probably been run democratically. [I'm not certain of this, so feel free to do some research and debunk this claim.]

[DonJoel]

I agree on some parts.

1 time I was at peace with the whole world and then i declared war at egypt (they wanted me to move my galley. No way!)
Suddenly all of the 7 nations !(which were also struggling with eachother) of the world made secret alliances and declared war at me!

But im not sure this is something that will happen everytime.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by introvert


USA vs Great Britian, War of 1812.

Britian refused to leave the New World, and America tried to kick them out.

This war started because the British were capturing American Seamen on the high seas and forcing them to serve in the British navy. Quite a good causus belli really. Unfortunately the peace loving people of the U.S. were totally unprepared for war.

Originally posted by introvert
Unfortunitly I can't think of any other modern democracies as aggressive as the USA...

Well I think it was in the 1930s in Central Europe, a certain Democratic Republic elected a government whose leading party used a hindu symbol, a crooked cross I believe. Anyway, that nation started a whole bunch of wars all at once.

You of course ignore colonialism as well. The Brits grabbed a huge chunk of the entire globe while they were a Republic, and were still doing it even as the improved their government to a more Democratic Republic. The U.S. has fought few wars for territorial gain, against very few people (in terms of numbers) in comparison.