OK I'm getting seriously PO'd about AI Trespassing!!!!!!

[CygnusZ]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS



This is actually a fairly delicate issue, and one not easily solved. From what I understand, telling the AI to never enter the player's territory without permission can result in timid civs who get hemmed in due to player expansion and as a result never provide much of a challenge. That's one of the reasons the automatic "get out" option was put in, IIRC. It allows you to force the AI to get out, and in my experience, they'll stay out unless they have no other way to get to a place they need to go.

I'm also pretty sure opposing civs will respect your borders more if they are afraid of your military and/or if they respect your culture and you have a good relationship with them.


Dan

Gee, I dunno Dan. The English kept on going through my entire civilizaiton to build a city on a glacial peninsula at the edge. I culturally assimlated it in only a few turns (and I *SHOULD* have razed it.. oh well, I had a cultural victory so I bought it lots of culture stuff), but what on earth made the AI want to go through all my territory to build a completely worthless city? Doesn't sound too bright to me.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by CygnusZ


Gee, I dunno Dan. The English kept on going through my entire civilizaiton to build a city on a glacial peninsula at the edge. I culturally assimlated it in only a few turns (and I *SHOULD* have razed it.. oh well, I had a cultural victory so I bought it lots of culture stuff), but what on earth made the AI want to go through all my territory to build a completely worthless city? Doesn't sound too bright to me.

When I first started seeing the AI do this to me (colonizing these tiny one tile gulags on the tip of my borders) I thought it was errant behavior, too. What I didn't realize, though, is that they can and will use this technique to push your borders back and surround you. It's a cheap way to gain a toehold into your territory, especially since it only takes 10 culture points to get that first border expansion.


Dan

[Lazarous]

Why don't the AI's ever try to negotiate a right of passage agreement instead of just arbitrarily violating your borders?

Laz

[Zizka]

Three points:
1) Access agreements: Yes the AI should atleast TRY to ask you for access but it never does !!
2) trespassing as good AI: I'm having bit of a problem with this. The Indians have (in my game) plenty of ports, so do other powers .. yet their favourite pastime is to romp over me. Why doesnt the AI try to butter me up for a nice juicy right of passage..
3) I think I can buy the idea of lack of repect coupled with an innate expansion drive if it wasnt for the following four aspects:
a) fortresses dont hold them back for trespass.. only when you're at war to ZOCs come into effect I think (havent seen it yet)
b) the AI does it every *bleeping turn* I could swallow this whole idea if there was say a 10 turn ENFORCED no-violation period (at leats then i wouldnt have to click "Get out" every turn!! (a "bad-boy" period) I miss the "cease-fires" from civ II!!)
c) if The AI tried more than one path .. Right now its alway steh same.. 20 elephants in same hex ; teh chinese ..same mess
d) even at the earliest stages of the gme the AI has absolutely NO repect for sea borders at all.

Z

[CygnusZ]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


When I first started seeing the AI do this to me (colonizing these tiny one tile gulags on the tip of my borders) I thought it was errant behavior, too. What I didn't realize, though, is that they can and will use this technique to push your borders back and surround you. It's a cheap way to gain a toehold into your territory, especially since it only takes 10 culture points to get that first border expansion.


Dan

I see. Damn, I destroyed the English civilization as retribution for that stunt. Guess I did the right thing (Can't have enemy civs encasing my civ after all...)

[Yohan]

This is actually a fairly delicate issue, and one not easily solved. From what I understand, telling the AI to never enter the player's territory without permission can result in timid civs who get hemmed in due to player expansion and as a result never provide much of a challenge. That's one of the reasons the automatic "get out" option was put in, IIRC.

Hmm... every time I've used the "get out" diplomatic demand, the offending units aren't automatically expelled to their territory. They stay there until next turn when they may or may not move out, and other units will take their place Why isn't there a "trespass again and we are automatically at war" option? Waging war with a Democracy is near impossible when you're the one that declares it, but defending against trespassers should be considered defense and should not cause as much war weariness. In the game's current state, defending your borders is considered the same as an aggressive action, and your people get all pissy about it.

[Grunthex]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS



This is actually a fairly delicate issue, and one not easily solved. From what I understand, telling the AI to never enter the player's territory without permission can result in timid civs who get hemmed in due to player expansion and as a result never provide much of a challenge. That's one of the reasons the automatic "get out" option was put in, IIRC. It allows you to force the AI to get out, and in my experience, they'll stay out unless they have no other way to get to a place they need to go.

I'm also pretty sure opposing civs will respect your borders more if they are afraid of your military and/or if they respect your culture and you have a good relationship with them.

Dan

I agree with the second paragraph. Not that Dan needs ME to agree, but still. It seems to me the AI's expansion drive is very very strong. It will generally avoid your territory, but once it has no more expansion room in it's own, it WILL go through yours.

On the other hand, if they really dislike you, and especially if they feel you aren't much threat, they'll go through anyway, to dare you to declare war. It would be nice if trespassing incurred some kind of (very small, but aggregate) global diplomatic penalty. So if the Chinese keep trespassing, other Civilizations are less likely to trust them.

My real pet peeve with territories is AI civs. They will allow ANY other AI civ to pass through their territory to make war, without a RoP treaty or anything. I don't know how you prevent the AI from being hemmed in as Dan said, but the diplo penalty would be a start.

[Ballz1998]

First of all, there is an option to let them know you will goto war if they dont get out it's called... "Withdraw your troops or declare WAR!!" If they dont... declare war, or offer right of passage. So what if they dont contact you first... offer them right of passage for a good deal of coins per turn.. they will take it and you get money. Don't let the game play you.. play the frickin game.

Also I would like to mention that the game DOES make a distinction between a defensive war and an offensive one... says it somewhere in the manual or civilpedia. So if you dont want them there, kill their units... they might get the idea. Me... im happy with letting them pay me for passage hehe.

Also, let me get this straight... people are getting mad at the computer for plopping down towns on your continent that you haven't even fully "controlled" yet??? Hmmm sounds just like what the Europeans did to the americas lol.... I'm not sure if it works, but it seems to be working well for me. . . when I see those little farts coming near land that I plan to expand into... send units to occupy the area... it seems like the computer wont build a city if theres an opposing military unit right next to it... at least I haven't seen it happen yet in my game. Second of all if the computer is expanding faster than you are... you are obviously doing something wrong... adjust your strategy... this aint civ 2.