Well, I bought the game and here is my view on it

[Leonidas]

Review Part V

Same game as the previous post and the year is 1660 AD.

Observations:

* Culture - well, my cultural domination of that Persian city worked. The city and its popualtion fell into my my sweaty grasp.

Another thing I noticed: My culture has grown so much it has formed a ring all around the island I am on. This is pretty cool. The other civs have sailed to my island, but they can't land troops or settlers anywhere because if they crossed that cultural barrier, then it would mean war. It's kinda funny watching all those galleys rowing from one end of the island to the other trying to find a way to get to my land. . . It's kind of like a nice protective barrier. . .

* Upgrade Units - I have not seen this documented anywhere, and for those who don't know about it, here is how you upgrade a military unit. Example: you want to upgrade a warrior to a swordsman. Move the warrior to a city that has a barracks in it, and press: "Shift + U". A small panel will pop up asking if you want to do the upgrade. Click yes. That's it. So, if you have 5 cities, you could have a barracks in just one of them for doing upgrades.

* Bugs - Monarchy, in the Civpedia is shown twice.

The Histograph, although not technically a bug, is not well done. Is someone working on this - it is an eyesore.

Here's one for the books: Just before I captured that lone Persian city on my island by culture, the Persians had moved an archer and settler out of the city (how did the computer AI know I was about to capture the city by culture, hmmm?). Anyway, after I took the city, I had the two buggers surrounded, and was going to put them out of their misery. But first I declared war on Persia to make everything legal in the eyes of the other Civs. No sooner did I leave the Diplomatic screen, then those two Persian units miraculously "jumped" from the jungle square they were on and moved 9 to 10 tiles away! After first, I didn't believe what I just saw. Luckily, I had two units near them and dispatched them quickly.

There are some major bugs in this game. If at times it feels unbalanced - it probably is. And if it feels like the AI is cheating, it probably is. Remember - this is a complex game, and did not go through a whole lot of playtesting before it was pushed out the door.

* Corruption - this is basically out of control. It needs major tweaking. I had a look at many of my cities - corruption in many of them was running at 100% Huh? I am presently a Republic. Even the worse gov'ts in history didn't lose all of their productivity to corruption. This just seems like a weak way to cripple the player.

Anyway, I am enjoying the game. Persia was just destroyed by the Zulus, and I'm starting to hear wardrums in the distance. . . hmmm, could my little island be the focus of attention for some globe-shattering resources?

I think I better start sharping my sword, I may need it. . .

[Aendolin]

Just so you know, you need a barracks in the city where the unit you want upgraded is. I thought it was a bug too, until I read the manual more closely (unless you already have barracks, which in that case it is a bug...)

[cpbeller]

Well, i really enjoy the diplomacy in the game. I have played 2 games (on my third one right now), both the previous games, i made it to 390 AD and then to 1330 AD. Diplomacy is a strong part of my strategy...in my first game, i went to war with the Persians, took over one of their cities. The Persian leader (Xerxes, I think?) contacted me to sign a peace treaty to end the war. All he wanted was to end the war, but i counter-proposed for him to give me (30 gold, I think), AND another one of his cities....it surprised me, but YES, he agreed!!! (and i am not lying about this either)....we were then at piece for awhile, until i made the wrong decision to attack him again (didn't realize it, but he was my source for iron through trade)...needless to say, he eliminated me pretty thouroghly then. The 2nd game, i lasted till 1330 AD, until i started a war (the Babylonians were getting ready to build a city cutting off one of my cities and a resource). I stole the settler...then they declared war...followed by the Americans, then the Romans, then the Persians....needless to say, i lost....This game i am playing, i am actually not doing too bad, the Americans are at war with the Russians (it is 900 AD), the Persians joined the Americans. Russia is right next to me, and their capital is right next to my borders. I am debating on joining in on the war too against the Russians...there are 2 cities that look very enticing to me.... :-)

[Leonidas]

cpbeller: Well, i really enjoy the diplomacy in the game.

It sounds like you're having some fun games. I have heard this from other players, so I am willing to try a few games with a variety of Civs to really see how the diplomacy operates. Despite some of the flaws in the game, I am enjoying it. The core game is quite good.

Aendolin: Just so you know, you need a barracks in the city where the unit you want upgraded is. I thought it was a bug too, until I read the manual more closely (unless you already have barracks, which in that case it is a bug...)

Thanks for the tip. I had to poke around in the game for a while until I figured out the solution

[Leonidas]

Review Part VI

It's now 1820 AD. I'm playing the Democratic English, and I have secured a very large tropical island all for my own civilization.

However, all is not well in Paradise.

The war drums have been beating for some time. . .

Both the Zulus and Germans declared war on me. Soooo, I started sending small gifts of gold (10-15 coin) to France and Babylon, to soften them up for the eventual alliance pact.

A few years past, and I was able to strike a mutual alliance pact with both France and Babylon. It was pretty cool to see the change in expression on Joan's face each time I sent her FREE gifts. After a while I was her "dear friend".

Anyway, after a few years, lo' and be hold, the dreaded Hun shows up with about half a dozen ironclads and a few caravels loaded with some cheering fans. These ships travelled all along my island's coast looking for a weak spot. Naturally, my city governors were freakin out and calling for a military buildup. I also had a handful of knights and swordsmen scurrying about trying to follow these ships to their eventual landing zone.

Then, what did I see coming over the horizon, like the cavalry in the nick of time? Why, Babylon had sent out at least eight, yes 8 ironclads to defend my shore-locked troops. I had a massive land army but NO ships. Don't ask me why the island-dwelling English have NO ships. . . it's too ugly to contemplate

Anyway, the Germans sent their fleet into a very large bay of water, and those Babylonian ironclads were steaming like crazy to get to them. They were a sight for sore eyes. . . I was actually cheering them on. . .

Eventually, the Babylonian ironclads and the German ironclads went head-to-head and started duking it out: cannon balls were flying left, right and center. At least 8 ships from both sides were sunk. In what I came to call the "Battle of York Bay", the Babylonians won a decisive naval victory, sending the remaining German ships scurrying for the open sea.

In all my games of Civ I have NEVER seen an ally actually come and help me out like that. It was truly a marvel to behold.

I was so pleased with the "Hamster of Babylon" that I sent him gifts of gold for his faithful service.

Now, I'm starting to get a feel for the diplomacy for the first time.
This is more like it. . .

After an initial cool reception, I am starting to get into this game. It is much better than Civ2 on so many levels. I am really enjoying it.

Despite the flaws and bugs, there are no show-stoppers. So, here's hoping the patch comes out soon

After I had built the "Forbidden Palace", corruption fell from 80 to 40, so it is possible to reduce corruption to a reasonable level, at least a level I can live with.

BTW: it would be nice to be able to see how many movement points are left in a unit's turn; and it would be better if we could see what the workers were building or had already completed. In addition, wherever a unit stands, the underlying terrain/improvements should also be included in the small box in the bottom right hand side of the screen.

The review will continue. . .

[Delbert]

my experiences

I'm playing as the American's..... old habits die hard.. though with the new rules i may start playing some other civ's

I'm playing at cheiftin level right now. and in advances i seem to stay about even with the other civs though I seem to lag a bit behind sometimes, i don't start to pull ahead untill around 1000 A.D. and then its not really by that much.

I'm running civ3 on a 1 gig AMD with 266 FSB and 640 megs of mem with WinXp, a 64 meg grafix card and it plays very smooth. havn't had a crash yet and I tab out and surf the net and read these forums during the computers turn, which tends to get longer as the game progress's.

As a Civ oldtimer, I'm loving this game and it does have that Just one more turn feeling, that I first experenced with Civ 1 when I was playing it on my commodore Amiga Computer.

Delbert

[Haphazard]

Excellent review Leonidas, I'm glad you're warming to Civ3! From the rest of the mini-reviews, it looks like going to war on more than one front is a killer without friends like those Babylonians! Go Ironclads go!

[Leonidas]

Review Part VII

This forum has been busy. . .

Well, it's now 1972 and the fur is flying. . .

1) I was in an alliance with France and Babylon against Germany and Zululand for several hundred years of game time. However, warweariness was taking its toll on my Civ (I'm now a Democracy), so I initiated peace with both belligerents (Germany and Zulus). And I got my Civ under control.

That was when the $h!t hit the fan. . .

2) All the Civs quickly made changes. France and Babylon made peace with the Germans and Zulus, and then both the Germans and Zulus declared war on me.

3) I contacted both of my former allies, but they wanted nothing to do with me since I "betrayed" them. Huh? I faithfully stood by them through several wars over hundreds of years, trading with them, giving them gifts of gold, and just because I made peace in order to quell internal rioting, I am considered to have betrayed them.

4) But I figured fine - I'll go it alone - I have enough resources and military forces to meet the threat. . .

Oh, yeah?

5) At just this time my coal ran out - all of it (now I couldn't even build Ironclads).

I started to sweat - no big deal, I say to myself - I'm ahead in techs, and if I can just hold the enemy at bay for a few turns I can build the destroyer - that will save me. . .

Ya, right. . .

6) Within a few turns the Germans show up with - count them - at least 30 to 40 Ironclads - I kid you not. I live on a big island and they hit me from all angles - attacking improvements, cities, workers, . . .

It wasn't pretty. . .

7) Now I start to sweat - no big deal I say - I should get a destroyer any turn now - and when I do - I'm going to wade into that Hun Armada. . .

8) In the meantime, I sent six of my remaining Ironclads to attack the German ones. After a fierce naval battle - all my veteran Ironclads were sunk - every one - and without sinking a single German Ironclad! Talk about your combat calculator. . .

9) But it gets worse - now I'm really sweating - but I'll be OK I repeat to myself - I just got the tech I needed - and now I can build destroyers and teach those. . .

. . . I eagerly scanned my city build list. . .

But no destroyer symbol appeared. . .

Then. . . it slowly dawned on me that - I NEED OIL!

Frantically I scanned the map - my beatty little eyes straining to detect that splash of black gold. . .

BUT NOTHING!

I. . . HAD. . . NO. . . OIL!

Aaaaiiiieeee. . .

[In the voice of Elmer Fudd] "The howwer, the howwer. . ."

And to the tune of "Uber Allies" the Germans proceeded to dismantle my Civilization with Prussian precision.

"Oh, the humanity. . ."

11) I even tried to build a coastal fortress - nada - it doesn't work. I even built a cannon for it - nope - still wouldn't work (the coastal fortress is supposed to fire automatically at enemy ships).

12) To sum it all up - the Prussians had their frisky way with me. . .

Observations:

* There was no way out of this dilema - if I had had resources to build the destroyers and Ironclads that could have at least given me a fighting chance. But, expand you say? Take the resources you need?

The island I was on was about the size of Australia and I had 15-20 cities. I should be able to play the game from a variety of perspectives and not have them be show-stoppers. Defeat me yes - but at least don't arbitrarily cripple me with NO way out. .

The beauty of the Civ series of games was that you could play any way you wanted and still be able to find a way out - nope - not this time. After investing 10-15 hours - my game came to a grinding conclusion.

* Strategic resources need to be seeded more. I tried trading for some, but the AI refused. This needs to corrected - a bit more needs to be spread around the map - at least make the game enjoyable. Definitely needs to be tweaked.

* Combat: A veteran Ironclad (4/4/4) was sunk by a Galleon (1/2/4). Not only did it sink the Ironclad, but it lost only one strength bar! Bring back Firepower. This system as it stands doesn't work properly.

* All the units and animations look very nice btw - somebody did a great job. Same with the cities.

* The game is fun - but as most of you playing the game are quickly realizing - many things in this game need to be playtested properly and tweaked. There are too many anomalies - and they tend to detract from what is essentially a good-looking, fun game.

* Even the diplomacy, while enjoyable - is still too "tightly wound" - it needs a bit more flexability. It usually only makes demands, and it will shun you quickly when you make the least move to shore up your own empire.

* War weariness is understandable if for example, as the Americans, you spend 12 years in Vietnam. But how realistic is it if you are Britain, fighting for your very survival in the Battle of Britain in 1940? Otherwise, the whole concept is a contrivance to cripple the player without making much of a distinction between a warmonger and a defender. When I had to sue for peace with Germany and the Zulus to quell out of control rioting, I was shunned by my former allies (thanks for the understanding, guys).

* I also hear that fighters cannot be put on air superiority or planes attack ships.

Some work is needed here. . .

I'm now starting a new game as Persia on Regent level, with 8 Civs on that new "Ringworld" map.

I've a learned a lot, and. . .

I ain't giving up. . .

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Leonidas

* There was no way out of this dilema - if I had had resources to build the destroyers and Ironclads that could have at least given me a fighting chance. But, expand you say? Take the resources you need?

The island I was on was about the size of Australia and I had 15-20 cities. I should be able to play the game from a variety of perspectives and not have them be show-stoppers. Defeat me yes - but at least don't arbitrarily cripple me with NO way out. .

The beauty of the Civ series of games was that you could play any way you wanted and still be able to find a way out - nope - not this time. After investing 10-15 hours - my game came to a grinding conclusion.

I just wanted to let everyone know that resource placement is one of the things we are looking at for the patch, and I think we will be coming up with a "less random" system which should make the end-game less frustrating. Which is not to say that you won't find yourself without certain resources from time to time...

[CygnusZ]

Funny, to me that it always the best part... well, not if you're on the receiving end

If you hadn't betrayed your allies (yes, leaving them to make peace with your enemies *MID WAR* is betryal) I'm sure they would have gladly helped you out with strategic resources to help your cause. If not, I'm sure all of you could have taken some from another nation .

Anyway, I've never gotten myself into your jam, because I'm always expansionist enough to realize I'm going to need some real space. However, I was trading for oil in the latest game with my very close ally. And let me tell you, I gave the Germans refining so that they'd share oil with me... you don't want to be on the wrong side of the Panzer

I have played games where I've been in total resource denial though, but there is always *SOMETHING* I can trade (even if costs me some nice luxury resources.. grumble) to get strategic resources. It sounds to me like your problem was more a lack of good allies rather than strategic resources.

[CygnusZ]

Soren, I just want to say that it'd be great to keep oil/rubber scarce with more ancient resources being more common.

But instead of having this strange diffusion of resources across civs, make it so that one or two civs gain leverage over the others as being the sole suppliers. Could create dramatic power-shifts late game (or dramatic wars.. imagine the puniest nation having all the oil?)

[Leonidas]

I just wanted to let everyone know that resource placement is one of the things we are looking at for the patch, and I think we will be coming up with a "less random" system which should make the end-game less frustrating. Which is not to say that you won't find yourself without certain resources from time to time...

Sounds great Soren - I'm glad to hear this is all being worked on. This will be a bang-up game when the kinks are ironed out.

I am learning my way through this game - so I will be better prepared (hopefully) next time around. Even if the ability to incremently seed the map is put in as an option: ie, have maybe 3 or 4 resource levels to choose from, that would be great.


CygnusZ: The problem was that I was in a double bind: in a war, but suffering terribly at home with war-weariness and severe rioting. My allies had NO strategic resources that I needed; Germany did - and it absolutely refused to trade with me (even during our initial peaceful co-existence).

I'm not complaining - it was a learning experince - I purposely chose the island map so I could have the time to learn the game system, techs, building, etc - it gave me time to learn a lot of the smaller things in the game. And being on the island isolated me from the other civs. But again, this was my objective.

But it was a mighty big coincidence that I ran out of that single patch of coal the minute the Germans and Zulus declared war on me, even though that island was filled with mountains

Also, a single act on my part shouldn't make me an outcast after being allies with France and Babylon for hundreds of years. It makes no sense. There should at least be an option to contact the other allies and inform them of my dilemma; that I may have to abandon the war for a short period to get my home front stabilized. The very fact that I had to leave the alliance goes to the heart of the crippling effects the player is faced with: stay with the alliance and close down all production at home to rioting (the populace was even starting to destroy improvements). Or leave the alliance, stabilize the home front and be faced with castigation by allies and a world war? Not much of a choice, eh?

I'm also learning how the computer plays, trades, and deals diplomatically - but more importantly, I'm learning the game system, and the strengths/weaknesses of the units and combat system involved.

But again, I'm not complaining - I've been enjoying myself - it's great playing a tough AI - even if it has been cheating from time to time

Now I'm looking forward to my next game. . .

[CygnusZ]

That's why I choose my battles very carefully . If I fight, I want to know for a fact that I'll win. Nothing good can come from a war that lasts over 30 turns.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis


I just wanted to let everyone know that resource placement is one of the things we are looking at for the patch, and I think we will be coming up with a "less random" system which should make the end-game less frustrating. Which is not to say that you won't find yourself without certain resources from time to time...

Just so you have the opposite view, I've been enjoying resource placement as is. It forces me into diplomacy with the other civs, usually meaning I have to trade my edge in technology for resources to which I lack access. If people are having problems with this, they need to play on a lower level in my opinion.

That said, if you are going to change the resource distribution on random maps, please, please, PLEASE make it an option of some sort. I'd rather play with the more challenging out-of-the-box resource distribution.

[cort]

Originally posted by Leonidas


Also, a single act on my part shouldn't make me an outcast after being allies with France and Babylon for hundreds of years. It makes no sense. There should at least be an option to contact the other allies and inform them of my dilemma; that I may have to abandon the war for a short period to get my home front stabilized. The very fact that I had to leave the alliance goes to the heart of the crippling effects the player is faced with: stay with the alliance and close down all production at home to rioting (the populace was even starting to destroy improvements). Or leave the alliance, stabilize the home front and be faced with castigation by allies and a world war? Not much of a choice, eh?


Now I'm looking forward to my next game. . .

well, remember alliances are made for 20s turns. so you have waited until time time ran out and just didnot expand it before making peace with your foes. its a bit tricky though, if AI players are happy with the arrangement, you are not warned at the end of 20th turn and the deal is reestablished. it would be better if the foreign advisor asked whether or not to expand the deal.

anyway; if at the midst of an alliance you make peace with your enemies, it is a betrayal, no doubt. you have to cancel your alliance first.