Firaxis, how about releasing the terrorist options as a DLable "extra"

[Wexu]

Dimension,

Did I say I wouldn't care when Americans die? Maybe you should buy eyeglasses or learn to read. I said 11th Sep. was a very sad thing. I really grieved for those people who died and was horrified that someone can do things like that, but you don't have to make a worldwide "show" from it.

And I can bet every penny I have that you wouldn't put flag to half pole and no-one would have a silent moment at the beginning of a baseball match is something like this would happen in Africa.

[SITS]

Hmmm.

The WTC happened, what 6 weeks ago? And you are saying you want a simulation that models that? I think that is insensitive for a number of reasons.

1) The attack on America is an act unparalleled in history
2) It is still very much a current event
3) It has affected a great many people
4) People still feel at risk from terrorism and some are dying from it right now

Comparing it to Pearl Harbour is erroneous. It was an attack by armed forces against armed forces - that is what armed forces are about. Civilians being targeted going about their daily business by a group of people (rather than a nation) is several degrees different.

Pearl Harbour happened 60 years ago as far as I know there was no game based on it within six weeks of it happening. If someone wanted to base a game on the WTC in 60 years time then fair enough. But having a game now that models those actions when people still haven't got a body to bury is insensitive.

I live in a town called Warrington, which is in the northwest of England. In 1993 a bomb planted by the IRA went off in the town centre on a Saturday afternoon which was full of kids shopping for Mother's day presents for the next day. A two year old and eleven year old boy were killed by that act of terrorism. It is a memory that is still very much there for people even though only a 'relatively' few people died. I don't want to see a game based on the killing of two boys (and I'm not so much talking about Civ here) for entertainment purposes. It would feel wrong to me.

We can do things in a sensitive way. I understand that Spielberg consulted with veterans whilst making Saving Private Ryan. In fact the spin-off tv series has veterans talking about their experiences. It allows the audience to 'remember' the horror of war and have a way to understand what happened.

There are also commercial reasons for Firaxis not to include such things. Can you imagine the headlines? 'SICK GAME - BE A TERRORIST' Why would a company want to risk that?

As to being an 'idiot'. Hmmm. I don't think I ignored the intent of the post I just said it was insensitive. Which I believe it is. So I don't think I'm ruining this message board I just expressed my opinion which others have done. I strongly disagreed with Aendolin's post and I posted that not with the intent of starting an argument. The is what message boards are about.

In the end it is about real people. I think some people forget that.

[Elucidus]

Originally posted by SITS
Hmmm.

The WTC happened, what 6 weeks ago? And you are saying you want a simulation that models that? I think that is insensitive for a

[and all that stuff inbetween]

th the intent of starting an argument. The is what message boards are about.

In the end it is about real people. I think some people forget that.

It is a game, for crying out loud! Being a New Yorker in the military who had some loved ones involved (a lot more near misses than anything else, thankfully), I don't feel it is at all relevant. No one is making a game where your goal is to fly some planes into a civilian building! There are some Mods to some games where your goal is to hunt down and kill Osama, however.

But c'mon people, you can go too far. Yes it was tragic, and I lost it for about a week or two. But it is time to get back to normal life. Yeah I'm sure I'll get some pretty nasty responses, because I am " so insensitive". I am sick of people going overboard on gaming forums. Every one I go on nowadays has some nut claiming everyone is a flaming pile of poo because they are so insensitive to the tragedy.

Ever think we (the US) are the cause of a lot of these terrorists? How many have we trained? How many have we financed? Yes, it was to fight "a greater evil of the time," but to think we are innocent in all of this is absurd. There are greater evils in the world that we don't even know about. People being slaughtered by the tens of thousands...

I am not trivializing it, despite it seeming like I am. To attack civilians I think is a barbaric act, but that happens all over the world, it's just that it usually isn't to Americans. We all feel we are protected in our little country, yet it is our “freedom” that leaves us so vulnerable. We think no one will mess with us because “we are so powerful.” How asinine and arrogant can we be? And the sad part is most Americans don’t even appreciate what it is they have. Not to offend any of our foreign brethren, however I have been to some places overseas that made me appreciate what we have here (ignorance and arrogance are excluded). I don’t mean to the desert I mean to “civilized” countries. I understand that what I have seen was not typical in some of the larger cities, but hey, even here in Alabama I have a lot more conveniently and technologically. I think every American should experience that.

God bless all of the victims of this tragedy, and I am sorry if I offended you or upset you in some way with this discussion.

[Wexu]

Elucidus,

Very good post!

[BitMaster]

Originally posted by SITS
The WTC happened, what 6 weeks ago? And you are saying you want a simulation that models that? I think that is insensitive for a number of reasons.

We don't want a "simulation that models the WTC" tragedy. Terroristic acts would have been most certainly part of Civ3 if not for the WTC attack (like they were part of Civ2; haven't played Civ1 for a very long time, so I can't say anything about that). More about that in the rest of the post.

Originally posted by SITS
1) The attack on America is an act unparalleled in history

How so? If you think it's unparalleled because no one ever flew planes into buildings to kill thousands of peoples, then I have to agree with you. Otherwise history is full of events where innocent people were killed in hideous and murdeous ways, both by governments and non-government organizations. However, governments were usually much more effective when they tried.

Originally posted by SITS
2) It is still very much a current event

Do you know how many people are dying every day? Dying of hunger? Dying in stupid 'armed conflicts'? Right now? While you read this post?

Originally posted by SITS
3) It has affected a great many people

Mhm, 40 million people died in WWII. I guess that counts as "affected a great many people". That doesn't seem to have stopped people making WWII simulations and stuff like that.
And don't try that "long ago" **** on me. Considering my answer on your point 2 and applying your logic, we would have to remove the whole military system out of civ and make sure people can't die of starvation in the game.

Originally posted by SITS
4) People still feel at risk from terrorism and some are dying from it right now

Reprocessing sentence... "People still feel at risk from war and some are dying from it right now"
Solution: Remove military units from civ

Originally posted by SITS
Comparing it to Pearl Harbour is erroneous. It was an attack by armed forces against armed forces - that is what armed forces are about. Civilians being targeted going about their daily business by a group of people (rather than a nation) is several degrees different.

So it's perfectly OK, if young people who would have actually liked each other had they met under more favourable conditions, are killing each other? If those people had no other choice to fight each other, either because of laws or because their culture is messed up in a way that makes them want to "die gloriously for their country"?
War and terrorism are both crimes. You can argue if you want to, which one is worse or if something can be a crime if there is no law against it, but for me, they are both crimes.

Originally posted by SITS
Pearl Harbour happened 60 years ago as far as I know there was no game based on it within six weeks of it happening. If someone wanted to base a game on the WTC in 60 years time then fair enough. But having a game now that models those actions when people still haven't got a body to bury is insensitive.

Well, mainly there weren't many computers available at that time. I'm not sure when the first thing that might be called a "game" was created but I'm pretty sure it was much later.
If we extend "game" to non-computer games (which would be the first thought on a board like this), well, I don't know how old it is exactly, but I know something that I would translate into "Sinking Ships". I'm pretty sure there is a different name for it in English, but I can't remember. Considering that all you need for it is a pen and two pieces of paper, I'm pretty sure it has been played long ago. Maybe even after Pearl Harbor? Maybe Pearl Harbor created the game? I don't know. But after having observed people for quite some time I think those are possible options.

Originally posted by SITS
I live in a town called Warrington, which is in the northwest of England. In 1993 a bomb planted by the IRA went off in the town centre on a Saturday afternoon which was full of kids shopping for Mother's day presents for the next day. A two year old and eleven year old boy were killed by that act of terrorism. It is a memory that is still very much there for people even though only a 'relatively' few people died. I don't want to see a game based on the killing of two boys (and I'm not so much talking about Civ here) for entertainment purposes. It would feel wrong to me.

I don't want to see a game like. Neither do want I to see a game like "The WTC Attack - Perfect it!". What I want is just the terrorist feature from Civ2 back, perhaps upgraded like the rest of the game, but removing them just because of the WTC attack is dumb. Civ already abstracts things very much. If you complain about something like the terrorist options in civ2, then you must complain about the whole military engine as well, considering how many people died in the past and will die further through military actions. But if you can't take that, I suggest Civ isn't the right thing for you at all.

Originally posted by SITS
We can do things in a sensitive way. I understand that Spielberg consulted with veterans whilst making Saving Private Ryan. In fact the spin-off tv series has veterans talking about their experiences. It allows the audience to 'remember' the horror of war and have a way to understand what happened.

Yes, and that's very important. I just can't apply it directly to the discussion we are facing right now, though. You are not complaining about the civ military system (unless you did so in another thread I haven't read so far) so I guess you are OK with it, even though you play something like WWII with it (in fact, there are many scenarios for civ2 who did just that...). And I honestly fail to see the difference between civ2 style terrorist actions and civ2 warfare. Both are, as I already stated, as abstract as you can get without dropping back to pure numbers.

Originally posted by SITS
There are also commercial reasons for Firaxis not to include such things. Can you imagine the headlines? 'SICK GAME - BE A TERRORIST' Why would a company want to risk that?

Yeah, I can imagine the media stirring up **** like that. Watching the news sometimes, it's just the stuff they seem to really like. But I'm sure none of us wants to turn this forum into a discussion board about rather dumb and stupid mass media. Apart from being off-topic, almost everyone knows that already.
And, btw, that doesn't have much to do with you original post.

Originally posted by SITS
As to being an 'idiot'. Hmmm. I don't think I ignored the intent of the post I just said it was insensitive. Which I believe it is. So I don't think I'm ruining this message board I just expressed my opinion which others have done. I strongly disagreed with Aendolin's post and I posted that not with the intent of starting an argument. The is what message boards are about.

I think you missed the point of the post. The original poster just wanted the terrorism feature back, as abstract as it was in civ2. You are treating that as if he asked for a WTC attack simulator in it.
The rest of us is talking about a button in a dialog box that, depending on randomly generated values, modifies certain bit patterns in memory, changing certain local and global aspects in a construction that we call "the game Civilization" represented through aforementioned bit patterns in aforementioned memory.


If the abstract form of terrorism that was possible in civ2 makes you feel unhappy, then that's fine with me. I don't mind it. I just suggest you think about the rest of the game as well then. According to your logic, you would have to be disgusted about the whole military system as well (I'm repeating myself, I know).
What I do mind however, is that you imply ill will in many posters here (namely the first one).
A lot of people dislike FPSs. I don't have a problem with that, provided they don't start talking bullsh!t like saying "FPS players are muderas or training to be them".

I wouldn't mind terrorism being optional and switched off in standard. If there is no terrorism in the game but there is a fan patch that enables civ2 style terrorism (or something similiar), I will most likely install it. If there is some disgusting stuff like "hijack plans and fly them into buildings" in there, they will get my contempt.

Edit: vB tags

[Dimension]

Wexu:

Did I say I wouldn't care when Americans die? Maybe you should buy eyeglasses or learn to read. I said 11th Sep. was a very sad thing.

I think you're the one who should go read your post again. Look at what you said again and tell me if you think the sarcasm is appropriate:

This 11th of September is really getting out of hands. If something terrible happens in US then it's a Holy thing. Everyone must grieve! Everyone must hold silent moments and put flag to half pole. Whole world must be terrified. BUT if something even more horrible happens .. let's say in Africa, you don't give a **** about it! You're so naive.

Of course what happened at 11th was a very sad thing, but wake up!

And now you're lying about what you said. You said, "11 Sep. was a very sad thing," but that is a very small part of what you said, and taken in context your message was much different.

You said the September 11th thing was getting out of hand. You implied that there were more horrible things happening that nobody cares about. Please tell us what these things are! Last I heard, 6000 civilians weren't killed last month in Africa.

Your sarcasm implies that it's somehow inappropriate for people to grieve or "hold silent moments." We all get the point that you don't care, but if you're going to make fun of people who are grieving, you can go **** yourself.

See, I was originally posting just to support Aendolin and say that I also thought terrorist options should be included, but your post was totally out of line.



SITS:

The problem here is that you're pretending that the "terrorist actions" originally intended for Civ3 somehow modeled the WTC tragedy. That's not the case at all. The ability to "plant nuclear device" or "poison water supply" doesn't relate to New York in any way. Most people are simply asking for an optional patch to include those items. Aendolin seemed to want some more enhanced terrorist actions, but I'm sure he's not expecting Firaxis to include "suicide hijacking" as an available option when subverting air units.

Nobody is asking Firaxis to make up new terrorist options that model the WTC terrorism. We just want the option to re-enable the options that Firaxis took out.

[BitMaster]

Dimension, I think you are doing Wexu wrong. He may have chosen not the best way to describe his thoughts but his first language doesn't appear to be English (isn't he from Finland?), come to speak of that my first language isn't English either.
Of course you could make him a "bad guy" here but I don't think that would do him justice, but of course, that's my personal opinion from just reading his posts in this thread.

You said the September 11th thing was getting out of hand. You implied that there were more horrible things happening that nobody cares about. Please tell us what these things are! Last I heard, 6000 civilians weren't killed last month in Africa.

The following text has been copied from the United Nations homepage and it took me about three minutes finding it. Imagine what other stuff I could find if I spent more time browsing and not limiting my search to child victims:
"Over the last decade, 2 million children were killed in conflict situations, over 1 million were made orphans, over 6 million have been seriously injured or permanently disabled and over 10 million have been left with grave psychological trauma. Today, in approximately 50 countries around the world, children are suffering in the midst of armed conflict and in its aftermath. Children are being raped, sexually abused and uprooted from their homes. At the present moment, there are over 20 million children who have been displaced by war within and outside their countries. Children are being deprived of education and health care and left with deep emotional scars or lasting trauma. Approximately 800 children are killed or maimed by landmines every month."

Your sarcasm implies that it's somehow inappropriate for people to grieve or "hold silent moments." We all get the point that you don't care, but if you're going to make fun of people who are grieving, you can go **** yourself.

Well, I didn't get that impression from his post. As far as I understood him, he only stated that compared to the suffering that is happening everyday in the world, it is a bit arrogant and selfish to see Sept 11th treated as the worst thing that happened in this world for a long time.
The WTC attack is indeed a great tragedy. But it is just one of many. Just a few years back, single events in Bosnia were probably much worse - probably, because we will never really know the full extent of it.
Of course, the events on Sept 11th affected us more because it was people like you and me being hit, because it was in the center of the media, right before our eyes. Not text-only news stories for 10 seconds or reports of survivors or yet another uncovered mass grave that get a 4 second video snipple.

Edit: Typo

[Panzer]

Elucides:

SITS: Take this into consideration: Let's say you capture a size 4 city from the enemy. Size 4 means 60000 people live there. You move your forces in and the 4 becomes a 3, indicating 30000 civilians.

This means that because of your attack 30000 people died, most of them probably women and children. When your forces captured the town they probably raped and murdered to their heart's content (especially if the capture took place in the older timeperiods) Yet I do not hear you complaining about that.

As for the attack on the WTC: Yes, it was the largest terrorist act ever committed and I myself was extremely shocked and saddened by it. Yet fact is that all over the world thousands of people die every day in wars, of hunger, sickness etc. etc. etc. Yet I don't hear anything about them. And I don't believe anyone has ever held a grand memorial service for civilians killed in Africa in civil wars, nor did the entire world have three minutes of silence for those victims. (Mind you, I feel the memorial services and silence for the victims of the WTC were a very good thing, it's just so sad no one holds them for victims in Africa or Asia )

I feel terrorist acts should be included at least as an option. Whether you want to use them is up to you, and yes, I would be shocked and appalled if there was an option 'fly airplane into skyscraper'....

[BitMaster]

Originally posted by Panzer
(Mind you, I feel the memorial services and silence for the victims of the WTC were a very good thing, it's just so sad no one holds them for victims in Africa or Asia )

Just wanted to say I definately agree with that because I'm not sure I strengthened that point in my post too well. However, considering events in Bosnia and so on, and looking over at South America, let's replace "in Africa or Asia" with "in the whole world".

[Tventano]

Again this seems to be a discussion between americans and europeans. Americans are very shocked, because it has been a long time that so many people died on the territory of the USA. The rest of the world is another story. During WWII a few american soldiers died, but the people of Europe and Asia really suffered, that is a difference in perspective. As a european I still think it sick that americans suggest that Hitler could be the german leader in Civ, that it is still allowed to make propagande for the nazis.

Relating to September 11th, I first think of 1973 and not of 2001.

[Deathray]

While many of you are going to call this insensitive and are going to whine, its something that has to be said:

**** happens. While the events of the WTC attack are clearly very sad and we should attempt to make sure it never happens again, it is not the end of the world. I can assure you that there were probably many other events almost as tragic going on around the world at the same time. Thousands of people were dying of starvation, disease and war at that very moment. Far more people have been killed around the world by the USA's own trade sanctions. Far more people die of cigarettes ffs. I'm not trying to devalue the lives of those who died in that attack, but you should remember that there are others whose lives are valued far less. Also, you should all move on. Finally, and most importantly, **** happens and trying to pretend that it doesn't exist doesn't stop **** from happening. Thanks you for your time, and don't bother flaming because I'm not going to bother checking this thread again.

[Panzer]

let's replace "in Africa or Asia" with "in the whole world".

That's what I meant BitMaster, I was just giving an example.

[Wexu]

Thanks BitMaster! Yes it's hard sometimes to tell what you're really meaning in foreign language.

Please tell us what these things are! Last I heard, 6000 civilians weren't killed last month in Africa. -Dimension

How about 800,000 deaths at 1994 in Rwanda, Africa?

"Beginning on April 6, 1994, and for the next hundred days, up to 800,000 Tutsis were killed by Hutu militia using clubs and machetes, with as many as 10,000 killed each day."

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/rwanda.htm

How many baseball matches hold a silent moment for all those people who got massacred?

[BitMaster]

Originally posted by Tventano
Again this seems to be a discussion between americans and europeans.

That in itself wouldn't be very bad. Humanity would be doing much better if people would spend more time talking and trying to understand each other (even if it's -at least on first sight- opposing views). What I do mind however is, that a lot of Americans seem to take criticism - even if you take great care when stating it - as something practically personal and tend to call you a stupid America basher. That has happened to me quite a few times, even from people who I know rather well...
But on the other side, the main guy I know is Texan, so that probably explains it all

[Elucidus]

Originally posted by Tventano
Again this seems to be a discussion between americans and europeans. Americans are very shocked, because it has been a long time that so many people died on the territory of the USA. The rest of the world is another story. During WWII a few american soldiers died, but the people of Europe and Asia really suffered, that is a difference in perspective. As a european I still think it sick that americans suggest that Hitler could be the german leader in Civ, that it is still allowed to make propagande for the nazis.

Relating to September 11th, I first think of 1973 and not of 2001.

Let's not go down the road of American vs. European. I don't think that is it at all. I think it is more of perspective and ignorance. Younger Americans are ignorant of anything that goes on outside of their towns, let alone their country. This is to mean children, teenagers, and young adults like myself. I know from experience I used to be like that. Being that CNN is an American company, they only show things through an American perspective, therefore that is all most Americans know. As for most adults, most being the keyword, I like to think they are better informed using the Internet to get their information, but that is not always the case. The opinion expressed by SITS I believe to be a minority. I also believe it to be a cry for attention, or more specifically pity.

Fellow Americans, don't get me wrong, I am not saying that "Americans are dumb," or anything like that. I am just saying that before getting your panties in an uproar over a non-American who isn't as mournful as you think s/he should be, get the facts about what goes on in the rest of the world. Don’t assume that the world revolves around us and don’t think they wouldn’t be here without us.

Of course now I sound like some psycho-bastard who is bashing his own country. I’ll have all of you know that I am very patriotic and love my country very much. I just don’t like the arrogance and ignorance that American Society seems to let on the Internet (read: children). Like I said, I think all Americans should have to serve 12 or 24 months overseas to learn to appreciate what they have. Thank you for your ear and have a fine day.