c190# THIS WONDERFULL CONCEPT OF FAITH

[MarkG]

190# THIS WONDERFULL CONCEPT OF FAITH
Response to #189

[Grumbold]

Everyone has the right to put down their thoughts on paper and send them to a company's customer service representative. Analysing a broad selection of those responses can give any company very valuable feedback on where they are succeeding and where they could do better. It wasn't long ago that every time I opened a game box a company questionnaire would fall out, imploring me to fill it in to become a registered user and acquire some nebulous advantage in return for my opinion of their software or marketing. My opinion was of value to them and their financial welfare.

The difficulty with the internet discussion groups is that not only do the company get to see our thoughts, but all the other members do too. Members with sometimes very different opinions. On creative topics that can promote very healthy discussions. What is culture? What can it achieve and what are its limitations? Discussion of that nature has led to a massive "List" of ideas and even though that is now finalised new members are always keen to offer alternatives or argue that a better choice could have been made.

Unfortunately on emotive topics it can just cause responses totally out of proportion to the question. Civilization is a successful and entertaining software program, not the answer to world peace or a cure for cancer. Call to Power is an offshoot franchise that has proved disappointing, mainly because the publisher chose to rush it to the marketplace before the developer could complete the work. Yet such is the intense focus on this site that trivial changes like Engineers vs Public Works are treated to scathing attacks on differing views as if it is some kind of boxing contest where a winner can be found by virtue of some killer KO verbal punch. Inflammatory and derogatory posts hammer away at each other ineffectually until the topic exhausts itself or the moderator applies the padlock.

Reading this board would be a much more pleasant experience if we could just agree to disagree on some over-debated topics, draw line under them and move on. Starting a new thread every day about whether some part of Civ3 will "rool" or "suck" is just pointless. No-one knows until the game is released and different people are by nature optimistic or pessimistic in advance of solid information. Unfortunately I'm just proving by responding to this article that I can't stay away from all of these endlessly revolving debates myself

All I can ask is that if you find yourself writing a post attacking something you have just read, stop and ask yourself first if what you are writing is part of the solution or part of the problem. Thankyou.

[RobC]

The companies producing gaming software are aiming at us we are their target group! Anyone knowing even just a bit about marketing should know what that means: They have to listen to us, they have to take into account our reactions, they have to adjust their product to our needs.

The only problem to this is that 'we' (Apolytoners) represent less than 1% of the total Civ3-purchasing population. Therefore, to focus on 'our' high priorities (say, MP-support) and ignore what the 'typical' consumer cares about (maybe nice graphics, ease of play/easy learning curve, cute-looking animated leader pics, whatever) would be stupid and, to be honest, unfair to most of their customers. If you want to talk about the business of making games, then you have to admit that catering to the typical purchaser and getting the game out in time for Christmas is far more imporant than pleasing a small, if vocal minority. This is not to belittle the importance of a dedicated, hard-core fan base, but I would argue that focusing too much on the concerns and criticisms of a vocal few is bad business.

[Grumbold]

Absolutely. I can decry their decision as shamelessly commercial while recognising that being a commercial company it's undoubtedly well worth it for them to ruffle some customers sensibilites if it boosts their financial returns

[Gyromancer]

Originally posted by RobC


The only problem to this is that 'we' (Apolytoners) represent less than 1% of the total Civ3-purchasing population. Therefore, to focus on 'our' high priorities (say, MP-support) and ignore what the 'typical' consumer cares about (maybe nice graphics, ease of play/easy learning curve, cute-looking animated leader pics, whatever) would be stupid and, to be honest, unfair to most of their customers...

I've heard this argument before, and I don't quite buy it. Sure, the posters here represent less than 1% of the people who will buy the game. (For FIRAXIS' sake, I hope it is a LOT less than 1% ) But, IMHO, we represent _not_ the more NET savvy portion of the population, but the more FANatical. We don't have the monopoly on having internet access, instead, I think we have more of a monopoly on caring enough to track this site down and follow it religiously.

There is a vast untapped population of AOE, ect MULTIplayers out there. (And not just the ones who regularly log into the zone...) A lot of these guys really couldn't give a flying fig about CIV III. But, you add a multiplayer that actually moves faster than the glaciers of the ice age, and BANG, instant sales.

Now, that said, I believe that they are delaying MP to implement exactly what I mentioned above. Multiplayer can add lots of sales if it has some mass appeal. (I just hope they dont rip the guts out of the game to do that ) Of course, I think there's a snowball's chance in Atta's new home of them releasing it as a free patch ....

[Father Beast]

I like the idea that we can be a sounding board for a developer in the process of making a game. Darned if I know if that happened. I probably won't know either, until I actually have the game and see what was listened to on these forums.

Even now, we have so little info on the game itself, that we have to speculate on how we might play it. and the secrets of the game have another week (oct. 22) before they really get revealed. now we just guess.

But maybe we have been some use to Firaxis. we have endlessly debated everything and it's dog to the end of topic, and beyond. a studious browser could indeed find a good feel for the civ community by using us as a representative grouping.

sort of like, each of us would be representative of 100 civers

[d_dudy]

damn good article!

[Rosacrux]

Actually I was just trying to point out how misunderstanding of a non-clarified process (the company-consumer circle namely) can have some rather confusing effects.

The truth is that yes, we, the Apolytoners (may I call myself one too? a pesky settler? ) are representing the whole body of the civilization gamers here.

Only the indifferent ("buy it and then bury it in the closet") players are not taking part to these discussions - they don't need to, because they don't care.

Other than that, we are pretty much representative of the whole of the civ community.

Said that, I would like to point out another example. A company did a research in the city I was living a few years ago - a 5 million people town. Their potential customers were about half of them (they are running a fast-food chain) and they had at time about 25 of their shops spread in the town.

They were about to introduce new products and they needed some serious feedback.

They tried to do this via surveys in their shops, but they didn't work out much. So they had to find a better solution. I was doing PR work for a large company fielded in Market Research and they took the job.

You know how many people (out of a potential 2,5 millions consumers in this city) did the company questioned? 900! Statisticaly this was an adequate number - they say - when taking into account factors as who the potential customers are, certain age groups etc. etc.

Let's take this example to our case. The company in question here (Firaxis) is conducting a much larger in percentage survey (not even comparable with the 900 out of 2,5 million) for free (you don't even want me to tell you how much they paid for it) and continuous (feedback throughout the whole process of manufacturing the new product).

I think Firaxis people appreciate very much what is going on here.

And they don't mind some bickering. Even if they would mind, I wouldn't care: It is our right as customers to complain when we need a better product. After all, this is free economy.

...and d_dudy, thank you

[orange]

Rather interesting...

...the author goes out of his way to bash me and my article, yet in princple, he agrees with most of my beliefs. I never said we don't have a right or duty to complain, I never said that we as Civers have to buy Civ III whether we like it or not.

This says it all...

They need sane, constructive criticism and they need some 'bickering and moaning too' just so they can understand that the people who buy their products buy them because they are good, not because of the fancy Firaxis logo or Sid's name on the cover.

There were two points to my article:

A) Firaxis deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong.
B) If you have a complaint to make, make it! It's what has shaped this game. But do it respectfully.

I understand how the market works, I also understand that to get respect from Firaxis, we should give it to them. Many of the issues we "claim" to know about we don't have evidence of, and until we do, we have no business complaining. When we have proof that something we don't like exists, we have the right to complain and should! But it can be done in a nice, constructive manner rather than cursing and *****ing like a bunch of toddlers who haven't gotten their way.

Just incase the author reads this, I'd like to leave you with my last substantial post on the c189 thread created by MarkG...however, I can't seem to locate it at the moment...I'll edit it in later.

[Grumbold]

Re: Rather interesting...

Originally posted by orange
Firaxis deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong.
...
Many of the issues we "claim" to know about we don't have evidence of, and until we do, we have no business complaining. When we have proof that something we don't like exists, we have the right to complain and should!

Different people are naturally optimistic or pessimistic. For some people Firaxis' past history with Civ/SMAC is sufficient proof of corporate style to draw negative conclusions from. For others it is a justification for unfettered enthusiasm. You can't justify muzzling one group and not the other.

If you have a complaint to make, make it! It's what has shaped this game. But do it respectfully.

Now there I agree with you wholeheartedly. Almost everyone here gets too carried away from time to time

[Duckman]

Comments, like Barbarians, keep coming.

Well I see the comments keep coming. Good. Maybe more people will play the game just to see if it is bad.

I will play the game. I will not disect it. I will not modify it (may be interested in some of the mods, though). I won't put a Firaxis bumpersticker on my car. I don't play the games entirely straight through in one sitting. I will just play, for fun, when I can. And I say again: It is merely a pleasant diversion to take a voyage through history by someone else's design. Fire away, Firaxis.

[Rosacrux]

Re: Rather interesting...

Originally posted by orange
...the author goes out of his way to bash me and my article, yet in princple, he agrees with most of my beliefs

Don't flatter yourself, I didn't got out of my way to either bash you or your article. I was struck by the quote I used in my article and I just had to comment about it - nothing more, nothing less.

A) Firaxis deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong.
B) If you have a complaint to make, make it! It's what has shaped this game. But do it respectfully.

Wrong and right. Wrong because they are asking for feedback, so that says it all: They have revealed early many, many details to the civ community and they didn't do so just for the heck of it - they did because they wanted us to tell them what we think. Isn't that reasonable? Of course we can't judge the whole game without adequate information, but fact is that we can judge what is known, no?
Right because I can tell myself how annoying it is when some people here start cursing and shouting without a clue - but it's natural, isn't it? Most people here are in their teens and those older don't allways sound that way

I understand how the market works, I also understand that to get respect from Firaxis, we should give it to them. Many of the issues we "claim" to know about we don't have evidence of, and until we do, we have no business complaining.

That is precisely the point we disagree. I say it is our right as customers and semi-self appointed customer representatives to voice our concerns and criticise Firaxis.

You seem to believe they are the weilders of the ultimate truth and "they know what's better for us". Well, the latter might be the truth in some cases, but that doesn't eliminate our right to ask for something we want - hey, we are the buyers, right?

I wasn't bashing you or anything - I can absolutely understand the reasoning behind your article. I just don't like the way you put it and I think the only thing to adjust here is the behaviour factor, not the whole "criticism" thing (as you seem to imply).

Regards
Rosacrux

[LarryLard]

The gaming community, stripped of it's uniqueness, is nothing more than a body of consumers. Quite sophisticated, if compared with the average consumer and thus more demanding and for a good reason. Still, though, nothing more than a body of consumers.

Well, it's not surprising we are 'nothing more than a body of consumers' since at the start of the paragraph you posited 'stripping [us] of [our] uniqueness'

[orange]

ok here it is...

alls I was trying to say is that Sid and Firaxis deserve our respect. It's my own thought that PR is not up to them entirely, and they probably have better things on their minds, yet they STILL manage to put up a website and put out movies that keep us salivating.

As for the MP issue, I'd much rather have Civ III now with SP only than wait 6 months for both. I *hope* Firaxis has the good judgement to put MP as a patch or free download or something, but if they include it in an XP or make us buy it...it's their choice. If you or anyone wants to fight this by not buying the game - that's your choice, and it's not what I'm protesting against. I'm protesting, as you said, the stuff that's just plain embarassing to the posters at Apolyton.

You're right, you've worked hard, and so has everyone else at getting our thoughts and ideas into this game, so we should expect something damn good (after all, we've waited a good long time ) but I think that before we jump to conclusions, we should wait until we get the game in our hands and on our computers. I think we owe Firaxis the benefit of the doubt on that one, at least. It's not blind faith...it's just showing a little respect.

These are my feelings, so before you bash me and my article, know what you're talking about.

[Grumbold]

Easy, Orange. His name is at the top of his article and I think he did as polite a rebuttal of your article as you did of the critical ones you were targetting in yours.