ICS status according to current Civ3 info

[jadlakha]

Originally posted by Jingo
but Rommel, ICS will re-ermerge, i'd put money on it.

there are "loopholes" in every game i ever played, and im sure that after a week or two someone will have a screenshot of a 250+ city empire all happy and strong with some humorous caption.

10 Dollars Jingo.

Im just in a gambling mood for somereason.

[cassembler]

Will ICS Exist in Civ3? Yes. Will it be the same startegy as Civ2? Definitely not. All empires must expand somewhat, and building more cities doesn't mean that you're using the ICS strategy. I think the traditional phalanx-settler-phalanx-settler bulding queue has been obliterated though. It will probably be phalanx (or other unit)-worker-temple-settler-marketplace-settler or something like that.

[Crouchback]

I've been thinking about this question a lot since the civ3.com faq was updated, and I can see a problem.

The driving force behind ICS is that first free square on which the city is founded as well as the one worked by the first citizen. Cities stay small because, rather than expand to use all 21 squares, the player builds new cities within city radius to get another free square. Lots of cities with a greater combined productive capacity than smaller ones.

As for resources, build a new city on them.

Culture will only be important if a better spread out, more advanced civilization can absorb the small numerous cities of an ICS player. Defence won't matter, ICS has always been defended in depth and number of cities count against armies only when you try to form a new one. Plus ICS can resist by stationing large numbers of troops in border cities, which helps prevent militarily weaker nations from overrunning their outposts.

It is that 2 population cost that is going to hurt, but not that much if small cities grow faster than large ones (20 stored food rather than 40), and the 1 population cost of workers. I'm not so sure this is a cure for ICS, it could be the strategy is back with a vengeance in civ3.

David

[Father Beast]

in every city screen I've seen, te food box is size 40

[cyril25376]

Look at this screenshot, building a settler is much more expensive (worker 1 turn, settler 4 turns)

http://www.multiplayer.it/show.php3?img=/immagini/articoli/1500/s_img12.jpg

[Jason Beaudoin]

I don't think it will be very easy to expand very quickly in CIV III as it was in CIV II, and because of that, I believe that most players will come across major problems when they attempt to do so. Not only will it be more difficult to produce many settlers, but because they can be captured, it would be very unwise to set them off on their own, as I usually did when I was just beginning. I would, most certain, accompany them with a unit, especially because they are so expensive to build.

I think the pressures brought on by other civs, and because of cultural factors, I believe it will be impossible to use the ICS strategy. So much is influenced by culture (from trade, diplomacy and border size) that if people ignore it and just expand, they'll be crushed!

Besides, Firaxis has already said that ICS doesn't work. This debate is kind of moot. I'm sure we can count on their assessment of the game, after all, they are the ones that have played the game, not us.

[korn469]

Besides, Firaxis has already said that ICS doesn't work. This debate is kind of moot. I'm sure we can count on their assessment of the game, after all, they are the ones that have played the game, not us.

and another thing nobody at firaxis has beat civ3 at deity either...so i guess beating the game on deity is a moot point too right?

i read over on civfanatics that size 1 cities and size 2 cities only require 20 food each to grow while the rest require 40 food to grow, if this proves to be true, couple that with granaries and we have what could be the area where ICS pops back up

as for culture, i think it will be somewhat of a deterant to ICS, but certainly nothing overwhelming if all but the super cities only have a three to five border radius

it does seem that ICS as we know it from civ2 is ineffective because of the many rule changes, but who knows what new thing will creep up because of this

because of the new support system army laundering in democracy especially worries me

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by korn469
...
as for culture, i think it will be somewhat of a deterant to ICS, but certainly nothing overwhelming if all but the super cities only have a three to five border radius
...

The MAXIMUM border radius is five,
unless you have won the game through culture.

[Akron]

Originally posted by korn469

and another thing nobody at firaxis has beat civ3 at deity either...so i guess beating the game on deity is a moot point too right?

The real question to ask is "How many people tried to beat it on deity?"

Hopefully, a lot of good players did and failed.

[Simpson II]

Thinking about the expansion strategy; if the food box never gets larger size 40 then bigger cities will definitely pay off better. On the other hand, big cities have worse happiness problems... controling those is probably going to be the harder than growing your cities, so unless large empires come with crippling happiness problems then we may end up producing settlers like crazy to get rid of population points.

Overall I suspect that early control over luxuries will be absolutely decisive. So early scouting and military is strongly indicated, and I'll probably start playing with an expansionist/militarist civ... hmmm.

[Comrade Tribune]

Very good thread!

I believe in the end it will come down to the basic question: What price a Settler?

To build up a city from pop1 to pop3 costs 20*2 = 40 food. So I would use size 3 cities to churn out Settlers.

40 food plus (probably) 60 shields is not really that much, so I fear ICS will be back.

[HalfLotus]

Another knock against ICS: I read in the "interview with Firaxians" that larger cities will be able to support more units without cost. This favors larger cities. Death to ICS.

Edit:
Oops. Just noticed #5. **bangs head against table**

[Lorizael]

I definetely think that ICS will take a big hit for all of the reasons listed above. But remember this. There have been civilizations in history that simply expand without paying too much attention to infrastructure. Not the best way, but it can be done. Hopefully thos will be difficult. I always found it better to only have like 20 or 25 cities though, as all of those cities would be awesome.

[albiedamned]

The 2 pop point cost for settlers is certainly a deterrent to ICS, but it seems to me that culture will be the biggest deterrent. ICS cities generally have weak infrastructure, which will mean weak culture in Civ3. Someone mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that a lot of cities producing a little culture could match a big city producing a lot of culture. But I think I read that the calculation for determining when a weak culture city is absorbed by another civ with a nearby strong culture city (or cities) is based on the culture points of the inidividual cities in question, not the culture points of the civ as whole. So even if a lot of weak culture cities can produce the same total culture points as a few strong culture cities, this won't stop the border cities from being absorbed by culturally strong neighbors. To me that's the single biggest factor against ICS.

[Skanky Burns]

You're right, a superior culture does assimilate weaker cultural cities. However, a city producing a small amount of culture will slow down the assimilation by the big culture-producing city. Also, a (larger) military garrison will prevent the city from being taken over. My point was that by building just a temple in each city (or just those on the frontier even) the new cities will survive long enough for the ICSer to take action against the culturally superior city (ie: wipe it off the map )

And this is only if total culture isnt a factor in determining if a city is assimilated. If total culture is a factor, then 100 cities producing 10 CPs will give the same as 10 super-cities producing 100 CPs.

Personally, i hope that total culture is used to help determine if a city is assimilated. Although it helps an ICSer, it also helps anyone and everyone who builds a new city near another civ, regardless of playing style.