Blackened map - can it be done better?

[Asmodean]

Before actually coming to the point, I should perhaps state, that I don't know if this is covered in THE LIST, and that I haven't got the inclination to check.

I also know that it is too late for changes, but I just thought of this, so here goes.

In Civ style games, even since before Civ was thought of, the blackened map tiles - those yet undiscovered - have been the standard. I submit to you, that I find that method of dealing with the map quite unrealistic. Since ancient times, humans have had a far better idea of their surroundings, and even of far away places, than blackened map tiles would seem to suggest.

Strangers, travellers and adventurors have always brought accounts of the world stretching beyond what people actually knew well enough to map. Roughly 1000 years ago Leif the Happy, son of the famous viking Eric the Red, was the first human of European descent to set foot on American soil. He was at the time, living in Greenland, and he sailed west not just for the hell of it, but because he knew that something was out there. Tales of fertile land and strange shores drew him there.

This was just one example, but there are countless more. Now, I know that graphically this is not easy to incorporate, but I do wish for a better system, than just blackened map tiles.

Have I been rambling? I hope not

Asmodean

[tishco]

maybe like that trading game machevilli the prince or whatever the remake is: after the mapmaking research the black becomes a rough outile of whats what when its # squares away from you but it may be wrong.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Asmodean
Since ancient times, humans have had a far better idea of their surroundings, and even of far away places, than blackened map tiles would seem to suggest.

Most common illiterate pre-modern people knew just about nothing about the world outside their own village/county. Even scholars had very dim geographical knowledge about the continent they lived on - not to mention the rest of the world.

[Ralf]

Infact, I would say, its the other way around:

In civ-games you can uncover black squares unrealistically fast with some early self-supporting in-the-middle-of-nowhere warrior-units. They way I look at it, all units except the explorer-unit (with or without a ship) should have a limited (but still reasonable) black-square uncover-ability. Any suggestions?

[Asmodean]

Originally posted by Ralf

Most common illiterate pre-modern people knew just about nothing about the world outside their own village/county. Even scholars had very dim geographical knowledge about the continent they lived on - not to mention the rest of the world.

Common. illiterate people, sure. But the map in Civ games represent the amassed knowledge of the world of an entire nation. I just think it is something to take into consideration.

Asmodean

[Trdi]

Ralf, I think you're right. The last idea is nice. About Vikings, how do you think he went to America? "Listen Frida, love, I'm going to America for a couple of years." The point is, he DISCOVERED America, he didn't knew it was there. Uncovering black tiles and sharing world maps is realistic.

[Asmodean]

Originally posted by Trdi
Ralf, I think you're right. The last idea is nice. About Vikings, how do you think he went to America? "Listen Frida, love, I'm going to America for a couple of years." The point is, he DISCOVERED America, he didn't knew it was there. Uncovering black tiles and sharing world maps is realistic.

Excuse me, Trdi. But all evidence suggests that he sailed west because he had heard from Eskimos that something was there. Off course he didn't know he had found America, and off course he didn't know exactly where it would be, but still...he sailed west becuase he was quite certain he would find something.

Asmodean

[Earthling7]

About Leif, he knew there was something, namely Labrador, but not neccesarily that there was a continent. It is however likely that Columbus knew about Leif.

Machiavelli solved this nicely as stated above. The "black" tiles had a brownish colour, showing roughly where the land lay. The game took place in Venice, and around there it was fairly accurate, but further away it started getting really distorted. That would be a nice thing to have in Civ.

[Adagio]

When talking maps here, I think there's only a few things that needs to be done, but nothing like that you mentioned here.

The things I would like to see is; let's say a city is build in the middle of the unknown, only knowing what tiles there are 1 tile away from the city, (Let's then assume we don't have any units to scout the area so it remains unscouted), when the cultural borders expand (into the unknown tiles) does the unknown tiles then become known or do they keep being unknown. I hope for number since I think that's more realistic because people knows the city they live in

The other thing I'd like to see changed is the friendship map. Let's say Country X lives right next Country Z and they are friends or allies, wouldn't it then (at least in modern times) be normal to visit each other and thereby find out how the other country looks like, therefor you have always an up-to-date map of your friends place. I don't know if this should just be in modern times (I'm not familiar with history ) and if this only should for the neighbour next to your country!

Anyway, that was just my thoughts on the "map-making"

But about the other idea, "I have heard there should be land around there, but have never seen it", and then the land (not correct) is shown in the black area is a great idea I think

[Fintilgin]

I really liked the system they had in Machevilli. By FAR the best `hidden land'/`black tile' system I've ever seen in any strategy game.

You'd have to tweak it to fit Civilization a bit though. I'd still include black tiles, but there would be a large buffer of Machevilli style squares too. That way, if you were Rome and had built up a bit, you might have actually mapped Europa, but large parts of Siberia, India and Africa would be done up Machevilli style, getting increasingly inaccurate as you got further from Rome until they faded into blackness in China and the Mid-Atlantic.

As your technology increased and you explored further the black would shrink and you'd slowly map out more territory.

Now, obviously it's WAY too late to do this for Civ3, but they did it in Machevilli very well, so maybe it's something to mull over for for when Civ4 is released in 2006.

Joe

[DonJoel]

About Leif, he knew there was something, namely Labrador, but not neccesarily that there was a continent. It is however likely that Columbus knew about Leif.

Actually the knowledge of Leif discovering amerika is something modern historicians and arkeologist have found out so i dont think Columbus knew that.

[Earthling7]

Originally posted by DonJoel
Actually the knowledge of Leif discovering amerika is something modern historicians and arkeologist have found out so i dont think Columbus knew that.

Not true. The story war written down in the 12-13 century and shortly thereafter it was translated and available in Copenhagen. Denmark was a major European power in the following centuries, both military and trade wise. There are theories that Columbus had heard about this. The church was very powerful, claiming that the earth was flat, using every available means to keep any conflicting theories underground.

I'm not saying he knew about it, but the knowledge was there and twe can not rule out the possibility that he did know something, especially given the fact that he spent years researching before the voyage of 1492.

[DonJoel]

Hmm, i didnt know that it was written down in copenhagen (are you sure??) but im pretty sure that Columbus didnt know of it.

Then he wouldnt be the first and who wants to be second?

[Earthling7]

It was written down in Iceland, along with loads of other literature. It's been called the golden age of iterature in Iceland. That's also where most of our knowledge of the nordic gods comes from. But as Iceland was a part of the Danish empire, much of this literature found it's way into the Danish libraries.

The American was common "underground" knowledge, but wether Columbus knew this is pure speculation.

[ChrisShaffer]

Originally posted by DonJoel
Hmm, i didnt know that it was written down in copenhagen (are you sure??) but im pretty sure that Columbus didnt know of it.

Then he wouldnt be the first and who wants to be second?

Columbus couldn't have cared less who was "first." What he cared about was identifying a new trade route to the West Indies and getting rich.