Do we need the unit-trigger for Golden Age?

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Ralf
Its rather sad though that so many voters didnt (at least) choose the third alternative.

Sorry if it makes you sad, but nobody forced you to start a poll about this topic.

How many of these great wonders are available for each civ-ability (there are 6 of those: militaristic, commercial, expansionist, scientific, religious and industrious)? And each of the 8 civs have two abilities, remember.

Yes, but at least some of the 12 Great Wonders satisfy two abilities.

[Rhysie]

According to the update wonders can have between 1 and all of the characteristics associated with them, though firaxis wouldn't be dumb enough to give any of them all the characteristics. But my point is, for all we know the average wonder might have three or more characteristics - It _might_ be very easy to get a golden age through wonders.

And even if it isn't easy to get a golden age through wonders, so what? You have the guarenteed chance, and the guarenteed golden age if you use your unique units well. If you aren't willing to fight a war, and you don't manage to build the right wonders, tough. No-one ever said every civ _had_ to get a golden age.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Rhysie
According to the update wonders can have between 1 and all of the characteristics associated with them.

Even with great wonders associated with several abilities (I dont know where you get this info, with the exception of Great Wall - 2 abilities), you still have to build 1-2 great wonders (of perhaps only 5-6 available - lets face it: not ALL great wonders are multi-ability associated). Each unique Civ is supposed to have the ability to wonder-trigger golden ages - just do the math for crying out load. Mini-wonders can also work as triggers - just take "Art of war" for example? Is that a great wonder? Sounds more like a small wonder to me.

And even if it isn't easy to get a golden age through wonders, so what? You have the guarenteed chance, and the guarenteed golden age if you use your unique units well. If you aren't willing to fight a war, and you don't manage to build the right wonders, tough. No-one ever said every civ _had_ to get a golden age.

I think we are argumenting in circles here. My point is that the supposed great wonder only-trigger is extremely hard in comparison with the dead-easy specific unit-trigger. Now I have no problems with the wonder-trigger, since I believe small wonders also can act as triggers (hence; "Art of war"). But the "1 battle won" specific unit-trigger is way too easy.

They can keep Civ-specific unit-triggers, but they must enhance the trigger-mechanism. Maybe an army of tree units (at least one of them being elite civ-specific) must conquer a forreign city? Or something like that.
Just give us a militaristically triggered Golden ages where one have to prove onself before on triggers it. At least 4 civ-specific units achieving elite-status is another trigger-condition. Just one specific unit winning one lousy battle is not enough.

[Rhysie]

Originally posted by Ralf
Even with great wonders associated with several abilities (I dont know where you get this info, with the exception of Great Wall - 2 abilities),

It's in the latest developer update:

Great Wonders are also now associated with one or more of the Civilization strengths

Note the 'or more'... It doesn't say one or two, so it could be anything between one and all of them.

Also, despite your insistance, Art of War is a great wonder. I won't quote for that one, because I'd have to quote almost a third of the update to make it clear, but read the last paragraph of the latest developer update if you still don't believe me.

[Ralf]

I think I give up for now.
I have tried to turn the attention on the discrepancy between the supposed "great wonder only-trigger" and the "win one battle only-trigger", but to no avail. The hour is late, and I must get some sleep.

[Admiral PJ]

I think the millitary golden age needs to be abit more challenging, but not too much, ideally involving a succesful combat by your special unit and a special Millitary General Character which would let you trigger an age if you accepted it.

It shouldn't be too hard to get, as if a civ is getting kicked to pieces it would be good if a weak desperate civ could trigger its golden age quickly to give it a fighting chance. this would be GREAT to give small civs a better chance against big ones.

Maybe for any golden age you have to reach a new culture level too? (radius goes up)or have a certain culture level needed.

Americans golden age could start when it impeaches George W(dublyu) Bush

PJ Today i'm your Master Judo Game Coder

[TechWins]

If the peaceful trigger is harder than what some of think it is then the military trigger level of difficulty should be increased. Since Firaxis knows what they are doing I would imagine they are both balanced out. I actually I hope both of them are fairly difficult.

[Admiral PJ]

The real reason they've got the wonder trigger is to enable you to start a golden age any time during the game, as special units can be easily destroyed ( I wonder what the rules on bribing special units is too ) . Maybe other civs won't build your civs golden age wonder (golden wonder.. thats a crisp company brand isn't it? ) as they'll be too busy building there own - I don't know.

I'd like if some wonders could only be built if they were related to the builders distinctive civ abilities, so the Great wall(of china) could be only built by china and other scientific or millitary civs.

I hope the manuals good for this game, it sounds pretty complicated .

PJ damn i want to blast some chinese civ buggers in civ3 (or whoevers not on my side )

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Rhysie
Also, despite your insistance, Art of War is a great wonder. I won't quote for that one, because I'd have to quote almost a third of the update to make it clear, but read the last paragraph of the latest developer update if you still don't believe me.

Rhysie - I have now done what you suggested, and perhaps you are right after all. Maybe peaceful golden ages are triggered by Great Wonders only. Im not completely convinced yet, but when I read that update, it suddenly struck me:
What if you play americans and you want a late-game golden age? Well, if both big and small wonders can work as triggers, then it would be pretty hard to avoid early-/midgame golden ages. So it starting to look that you are right about those Great wonder-related triggers. I dont rule that out anymore.

Anyway, I still believe that the current unit-trigger is too weak. Especially compared with above Wonder-trigger. I dont want to "stumble into" golden age, just because one single successful specific unit battle.

Originally posted by TechWins
If the peaceful trigger is harder than what some of think it is then the military trigger level of difficulty should be increased. Since Firaxis knows what they are doing I would imagine they are both balanced out. I actually I hope both of them are fairly difficult.

I certainly agree to that.

[TechWins]

. I dont want to "stumble into" golden age, just because one single successful specific unit battle.

I hope you don't get a choice on whether or not you want to have your golden age. It should just happen and you should not have any complaints about it. If you want to make having your golden age a very complex strategy then plan your building of wonders and fighting with UU accordingly. Having a free choice of accepting your goldeng age will lead to most human civs receiving their golden age in modern times. Only humans will receive the golden age in modern times by non default because the AI will always choose yes. You should receive your golden age when you are supposed to receive your golden age.

[RobC]

Originally posted by Ralf
Just give us a militaristically triggered Golden ages where one have to prove onself before on triggers it. At least 4 civ-specific units achieving elite-status is another trigger-condition. Just one specific unit winning one lousy battle is not enough.

I think that's getting a bit too hard. My earlier suggestion that you can trigger a golden age when you get a single UU to elite level is fairly difficult, or at least it can take you some time to do it since you don't gain levels every time you win a battle, and you need to seek out tougher opponents (who are more likely to kill you) to have a better chance to gain levels. For example, if you are China and you start building your first Rider unit on the same turn as you start building the Great Wall (in a different city), do you think you will always be able to get one of your Rider units to elite status before the Great Wall is completed?