Peaceful Golden Age has been implemented!

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by Ralf
Above peaceful golden age trigger is in fact so good, that I hope they scrap the specific units trigger. Its not needed. What do you guys think? I want to be able to fight with those specific units, without risking having a forced upon Golden Age, then I perhaps not ready for it.

You make really valid points. But what about the warmonger that wants to be able to have a GA, and can't build the required Wonder? Should the warmonger not be allowed to trigger a GA just because he does not have a certain wonder? Isn't that just as unfair as not having a peaceful trigger for a GA?

There has to be a trigger for both types of players so that both can have a GA without compromising their strategies! Hopefully we have that now!

[Ralf]

Originally posted by The diplomat
You make really valid points. But what about the warmonger that wants to be able to have a GA, and can't build the required Wonder? Should the warmonger not be allowed to trigger a GA just because he does not have a certain wonder? Isn't that just as unfair as not having a peaceful trigger for a GA?

Both great wonders and small wonders triggers Golden Age, I believe. And every Civ can build small wonders - they are not exclusive. Also, achieving Golden Age shouldnt be a God-given right. The player must work for it.

[Rhysie]

Originally posted by Ralf


Both great wonders and small wonders triggers Golden Age, I believe. And every Civ can build small wonders - they are not exclusive. Also, achieving Golden Age shouldnt be a God-given right. The player must work for it.

Actually the update specifically talks about Great Wonders in relation to golden ages, implying that _only_ great wonders trigger a golden age.

[donarumo]

Originally posted by Rhysie

Actually the update specifically talks about Great Wonders in relation to golden ages, implying that _only_ great wonders trigger a golden age.

Just to clarify yes, they are only great wonders that do this. here is the text from civ3.com:

Great Wonders are also now associated with one or more of the Civilization strengths

[ajbera]

Originally posted by Rhysie
I got the impression it was more that you could rush-buy the wonders if you had a leader present, rather than sacrificing the leader for the wonder ala alien artifact/caravan.

I think you're wrong, Rhysie. Allowing GL's to rush-build wonders AND allowing them to form armies makes them a bit too powerful. By choosing how you want them to be used, you can simulate a great military leader (armies) or a great industrial leader (wonders). Too bad (to the best of our knowledge) they didn't implement scientific leaders, or even entertainment leaders (then you could REALLY have Elvis in your civ )

I can't back this up with Firaxis quotes (at least I'm too lazy to perform the research), but I feel my assumptions are probably correct.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Rhysie
Actually the update specifically talks about Great Wonders in relation to golden ages, implying that _only_ great wonders trigger a golden age.

So both Art of War, Hoover dam and Great Wall are great wonders? Well, Great Wall perhaps, but certainly not "Art of war". No Rhysie, I think its more likely that small wonders can trigger golden ages, also.

[ixnay]

Quote from developer update:

"Great Wonders are also now associated with one or more of the Civilization strengths"

Which rather strongly implies that only great wonders can trigger GA's.

[RobC]

Originally posted by ajbera


I think you're wrong, Rhysie. Allowing GL's to rush-build wonders AND allowing them to form armies makes them a bit too powerful. By choosing how you want them to be used, you can simulate a great military leader (armies) or a great industrial leader (wonders). Too bad (to the best of our knowledge) they didn't implement scientific leaders, or even entertainment leaders (then you could REALLY have Elvis in your civ )

Who says that the same GL can do both? Probably the industrial great leaders can't do squat with armies, and the military great leaders don't allow you to rush a wonder.

If there really are two (or more) types of GLs, I wonder what event will trigger the arrival of an industrial great leader. Also, do you think that this industrial great leader needs to be in the city that the wonder is being built? It would certainly make a tempting target for enemies if you needed to shuttle him from an outer province to your capital before you could use it...

[Rhysie]

Originally posted by Ralf


So both Art of War, Hoover dam and Great Wall are great wonders? Well, Great Wall perhaps, but certainly not "Art of war". No Rhysie, I think its more likely that small wonders can trigger golden ages, also.

Sorry, but all three of these are mentioned specifically as great wonders in the latest update. If you don't believe me, believe firaxis.

With regards to leaders allowing rush building being too powerful, I think you misunderstood me - You'd still have to pay for the rush build as in civ2... So it wouldn't be that powerful. It would also give a non-militaristic use for leaders.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Rhysie
I got the impression it was more that you could rush-buy the wonders if you had a leader present, rather than sacrificing the leader for the wonder ala alien artifact/caravan.

OTOH, sacrificing a leader (and thus the option to build an army) to complete a hard-fought Great Wonder - now that would be a tough choice.

[dennis580]

Does anybody have any idea of what might trigger a Industrial Great Leader.

[ajbera]

Originally posted by RobC Who says that the same GL can do both? Probably the industrial great leaders can't do squat with armies, and the military great leaders don't allow you to rush a wonder.

If there really are two (or more) types of GLs, I wonder what event will trigger the arrival of an industrial great leader. Also, do you think that this industrial great leader needs to be in the city that the wonder is being built? It would certainly make a tempting target for enemies if you needed to shuttle him from an outer province to your capital before you could use it...

Err...no, I never said there were multiple types of Great Leader. I said you could SIMULATE different types by using them for different things.

Rhysie hopes that a GL could rush-build a Wonder and then still be used to create an army. My argument is that it makes GLs too versatile. By having to decide how to use the GL (and I believe you can only use the GL once for one purpose - either making an army or a wonder) you get greater depth of gameplay than if the GL could do everything.

Hope this clears everything up.

[monkspider]

Sun Tzu's Art of War seems like an "off the beaten path" type of wonder, but I certainly have no problem with it, it has certainly had a huge impact on the development of the world.

[RobC]

Originally posted by ajbera
Err...no, I never said there were multiple types of Great Leader. I said you could SIMULATE different types by using them for different things.

Rhysie hopes that a GL could rush-build a Wonder and then still be used to create an army. My argument is that it makes GLs too versatile. By having to decide how to use the GL (and I believe you can only use the GL once for one purpose - either making an army or a wonder) you get greater depth of gameplay than if the GL could do everything.

Hope this clears everything up.

Actually, I wasn't saying you thought there were multiple types of great leaders. I was saying that I think there may be multiple types of great leaders. If you recall, Firaxis once mentioned the possibility of having scientific, entertainment, etc. great leaders as well as militaristic ones. So I think it's a good possibility that there are just two (or more) different types of great leaders. If true, this should satisfy your concern that a single GL that can do both is too powerful.

Now this still leaves open the question of whether the "industrial great leader" is used up like the SMAC alien artifact or not, but I would guess it's not. The way I read 'rush-build' is the old Civ2 style of just buying the rest of the production needed to build a wonder. I've always thought this makes it a little too easy for the human player (who gets to know in advance when an opponent is about to complete a wonder), so requiring a industrial GL can help to limit this 'abuse'. Also, I wouldn't describe using a SMAC alien artifact as a 'rush-build', more of a 'production bonus' (in the game, it asks if you want to use them to 'help complete' your wonder)

[Robert]

Ralf: Its not needed. What do you guys think? I want to be able to fight with those specific units, without risking having a forced upon Golden Age, then I perhaps not ready for it.

Pherhaps a golden age doesn't start because the 'governament' wants one. A golden age just starts..............

I know civ isn't meant to reflect reality, but in fact I kinda like the fact that you don't have complete influence on when your GA will happen. Some civs will have a forced early GA, other civs will have to wait.............. that makes the game very interestic.