12 major wonders??? Is that enough?

[monkspider]

The number that is being repeatedly thrown around here is that there is 12 Major Wonders, meaning each of the three major eras will have 4 wonders dedicated to it.

Let's take a look at some of the Wonders from past Civs (I'm doing all this off of the top of my head, so forgive me if some are missing)

Antiquity (9)
Colussus
Pyramids
Great Wall
Hanging Gardens
Lighthouse
Great Library
Sun Tzu's War Academy
Marco Polo's Embassy
Oracle

Middle Ages (9)
Sistine Chapel
Leo's Workshop
Shakespeare's Theatre
King Richard's Crusade
Magellan's Expedition
Adam Smith's Trading Company
Bach's Cathedral
Copernicus' Observatory
Newton's College

Modern Times (9)
Eifel Tower
Statue of Liberty
Darwin's Voyage
United Nations
Cure for Cancer
Apollo Program
Manhattan Project
SETI
Hoover Dam

I appologize if I have left a couple out, but the point is there are 27 wonders here that I have listed, with only a couple that could pass as generic minor wonders in the same vein as "Heroic Epic" or "Great Canal" (Oracle being the obvious one that comes to mind). PLUS there is talk about all sorts of new wonders in this game, such as the Tower of Babel and the Pentagon. Either the number 12 is not accurate or we are going to have to look at a lot of our favorite wonders missing the final cut.

[Gramphos]

I'll not comment on this until I know how well the concept of Minor Wonders works, and that I can't know until I have the game. So I'll get back t this issue later.
Anyway, from what I know, and think I know, 12 Major wonders will be enough.

I'll not judge before the game is released and I've played some games trying different strategies.

[monkspider]

From what I understand, Minor Wonders will be great accomplishments of civilization that can be built once by *EACH* civilization. Some of the titles of Minor Wonders will be "Heroic Epic", "Great Canal", "Military Academy", etc.
Things like The Pyramids and The Sistine Chapel aren't really conducive to being generic Minor Wonders, thus it seems that some of our favorite wonders from past Civs are getting the ax, which is something I find rather disturbing, having never played the game of course. Perhaps it will actually work out for the best, and it is unfair to make any judgements at this point as you say Grampsky.
Nonetheless, I want my SETI and Cure for Cancer!!!!!

[Harlan]

One minor wonder we know of is War Academy, and I think there's going to be a lot of that: genetrifying former wonders to become minor wonders. Watch Adam Smith's Trading Company become just the Trading Company, Bach's Cathedral become Great Cathedral, Copernicus' Observatory become National Observatory, and so on.

There were 28 wonders in Civ2, 32 in Civ3 (12 big, 24 small), and we've heard of a number that have no parallel with Civ2, like Internet, Heroic Epic, Grand Canal, etc.. So, even with the gentrifying, some old ones are going to have to be just plain cut, if they're sticking with the 32 limit.

I, for one, am not going to shed a tear about that just yet. Quite of few of the old wonders were historically dorky (there was no real Copernicus' Observatory, Marco Polo's Embassy, Sun Tzu's Military Academy, and a few others), and a lot of the effects weren't that inspirational (with a few exceptions, like Leonardo's Workshop). Most were plus two happiness in all your cities, free building X in all your cities, and the like. The effects of the new ones sound cooler, like Great Wall being an actual wall, Grand Canal being an actual canal, and so on.

[tniem]

Harlan where did you get the 32 wonder limit? I have heard something around there but your math might be a little rusty

24 + 12 = 36 not 32.

[lockstep]

12 big + 24 small = 36 total

And to quote civfanatis.com: "Civ3 has all the Wonders in Civ2, plus a couple of new ones. Some old wonders function in new ways."

[Harlan]

Uhhh.... duhhh... me not good math.

I heard that in some old review. I just double checked at the Civ Fanatics info page, and they have the same numbers. But looking there I see I'm wrong on another point - there's a Great Canal wonder (modelled on the Panama Canal), not a Grand Canal wonder (a la the one in China).

With 36, perhaps they will keep all or vitually all the old ones in one form or another.

[down th' pub]

Monkspider, I have to disagree on the church thing, Sistine Chapel becomes Westminster Abbey or Notre Dame etc, The Pyramids could be Stone henge or Hanging Gardens (OK that's a stretch). But the Big Temple is the same as Secret Service, Military Academy, Heroic Epic.

[DarkCloud]

C'mon either there should only be 7 major wonders per age or 7 total numbers per age... it's traditional. It even goes back to the era of Greece, etc.

[isaac brock]

Originally Posted by Darkcloud
C'mon either there should only be 7 major wonders per age or 7 total numbers per age... it's traditional. It even goes back to the era of Greece, etc.

There are only 3 major wonders in each age. 12 major wonders divided by 4 ages equals 3. So that's more than fair.

[Skanky Burns]

Im willing to give up the traditional number 7 for wonders if it makes the game more fun... Besides, if you include minor wonders as well, then there is 9 wonders per age

[star mouse]

With 12 major wonders, we can build them all ...

Personally, I've always been bothered by depictions of Copernicus' Observatory as being a modern-style observatory with a telescope. Copernicus never used a telescope. Copernicus died in 1543, and the telescope wasn't invented until about 1604.

Latest information has the small wonders not occurring in specific ages, but are instead associated with specific events. For example, Heroic Epic can be built once you get your first Leader, and Ironworks (?) can be built when you have a city with both coal and iron within its borders.

I think we should trust Firaxis to do the right thing with their revision of the Wonders concept. Sure, the concept of every civ being able to build wonders that were once exclusive might take getting used to for old-time CIV'ers, but I'm sure it will work out OK.

[Alex 14]

Originally posted by lockstep
And to quote civfanatis.com: "Civ3 has all the Wonders in Civ2, plus a couple of new ones. Some old wonders function in new ways."

And then they contridicted themselves by stateing that Civ 3 will only have 12 major wonders.

[Alex 14]

Civ 3 with 12 wonders will really put the race on for building a wonder, in a multiplayer situation you will proberly find that you will have to race to build the same wonder.

[Urban Ranger]

I am quite keen on cutting down on the number of major wonders. For example ones such as the Manhattan Project, Cure for Cancer, Universal Suffrage, Newton's College, etc., should all be minor wonders that everybody can build.

I don't want everybody can build the nuclear bomb after *I* finish the Manhattan Project, damn it