Announcement

**shum00** · August 17, 2001, 11:39

I more or less agree with your tech tree, but maybe this is mostly because I don't like the new one. I had a bit of trouble with the meanings of the italics and arrows, but here are a couple of changes I would make.

How does fuedalism contribute to democracy?

And what do Arts(or Music Theory) have to do with ecology and genetics?

**Martinus** · August 17, 2001, 12:01

Re: Middle Ages: changes in causality

Those I do not agree with:

Originally posted by Ribannah
Monotheism
Civ2: Philosophy, Polytheism | Fundamentalism, Theology
Civ3: last era | Chivalry, Theology
Ribannah says (Ethics): Chivalry, Mythology | Fundamentalism, Theology

Ethics is something different from religion and certainly has not evolved from chivalry - see "Nikomachean Ethics" by Aristotle

And chivalry may be seen as arguably developing from religion, as it was religious code applied to warfare

Engineering
Civ2: Construction, The Wheel | Invention, Sanitation
Civ3: last era | Invention
Ribannah says: University, The Wheel | Empiricism, Gunpowder, Mechanics

First universities started to show up in Europe around 11th century. Plato's Academy was not university - university is a gathering of teachers and students, not a group of students gathered around one or two famous wise men (and disapearing after their death).

Engineering was invented much earlier.

Theology
Civ2: Feudalism, Monotheism | -
Civ3: Monotheism | Education, Printing Press
Ribannah says: Ethics, Philosophy | Humanism, Empiricism(, (Trias Politica ->) Democracy

Once again, the link between philosophy, theology and humanism is weak one at best. Actually, the societies that excelled in philosophy or humanism were either atheistic (Greeks) or rebelled against theology (reneissance Italy)

Chivalry
Civ2: Feudalism, Horseback Riding | Leadership
Civ3: Feudalism, Monotheism | -
Ribannah says: Feudalism, Horseback Riding | Ethics, Leadership

See my comments on Monotheism

Music Theory
Civ2: - | -
Civ3: Education | -
Ribannah says (Arts): Literacy, Philosophy | (Biology ->) Ecology; Genetics, Romanticism

I fail to understand why music theory leads to biology, ecology and genetics.

Other than that I do not have any major reservations. However I do not find the Firaxis tree particularly flawed either. I like however that it is not that overgrown.

**Ribannah** · August 18, 2001, 08:14

Re: Re: Middle Ages: changes in causality

Originally posted by Martinus
Ethics is something different from religion and certainly has not evolved from chivalry - see "Nikomachean Ethics" by Aristotle
And chivalry may be seen as arguably developing from religion, as it was religious code applied to warfare

Chivalry was a little more than that. As put by the Encyclozine:

"Chivalry can be defined as the sworn moral and behavioural code of conduct
governing knights during the Middle Ages; its qualities included: honour, courage, gallantry, chastity, courtesy, generosity, and loyalty, among others. In later time, the chivalric idea came to form the basis of gentlemanly behaviour."

Chivalry was important because it brought order to the chaos that surrounded the feudal medieval times.

In my tree it does arrive from religion, too, since religion is needed to arrive at Feudalism. Ethics is the idea that this code of conduct should apply to everyone. With that comes the thought that other peoples should live by your values, too. For that reason I chose to place the discovery of Ethics at the time of the Crusades (hence the crusader as a unit with Ethics).

Of course there were ethics since the beginning of time, so the placement in the tree is by definition open to discussion. The idea is to place it when it had a major impact.

First universities started to show up in Europe around 11th century. Plato's Academy was not university - university is a gathering of teachers and students, not a group of students gathered around one or two famous wise men (and disapearing after their death).

And the point is?

Engineering was invented much earlier.

Again, there was Engineering since the beginning of human civilization, and the idea is to find a point of major impact. The University stands for a more systematic approach to research, which gave Engineering a big boost and led to many inventions.

Once again, the link between philosophy, theology and humanism is weak one at best. Actually, the societies that excelled in philosophy or humanism were either atheistic (Greeks) or rebelled against theology (reneissance Italy)

This rebellion is precisely why Theology is a prerequisite for Humanism. The link show an incentive rather than a technological requirement.

I fail to understand why music theory leads to biology, ecology and genetics.

It doesn't, you probably missed that in my tree I have Arts instead of the rather limited Music Theory. The wish to correctly picture the human body (and animals, and nature in general) incited the scientific study of the object(s).

Announcement

Middle Ages: changes in causality

Middle Ages: changes in causality

Comment

Comment

Comment